Discussion: Parenting tapping into rage and hurt

I read all the comments on Shandra's question yesterday, and it struck me that I don't think we've ever talked here about how much becoming a parent can crack open all sorts of powerful and negative emotions you thought you had a handle on or didn't even know you had in the first place.

I found that parenting each of my children, especially when they were teeny tiny, tapped into completely different but nasty emotions in me. Not that I felt bad about my children. (Other than the fact that they weren't sleeping, wanted to be held all the time, had robbed me of my identity as a person, etc. etc.--the usual new-mother mindf**k.) On the contrary, it made me wonder how anyone could fail a child when the things children demanded from you were so basic.

Looking back, it's interesting to me that my two kids each tapped into something completely different, and I reacted in different ways to those feelings.

(Are you guys getting frustrated that I'm not being specific? I am, but so many people in my family read Ask Moxie that I just can't be direct. Besides, this is really about you--I'm just trying to start the conversation off.)

How, also, do you deal with these emotions when you can't be open about them with the people who inspired them in you? Besides posting them here, of course. ;-)

I feel like I'm not hitting the ideas and words correctly today, like something about this is off, but I'm hoping you're all getting the essence of what I'm asking: Were you surprised by how angry and sad you could feel about how well you were doing with your own child, and how afraid you were that you might not be able to keep it up? Were you able to turn to the generation above you for help, or was it a second abandonment, even if only in little, around-the-edges ways? Do you think it ended up being healing for you, or do you think it cracked open some things that you're still having problems navigating through?

As usual, to post anonymously, put a fake URL in the URL box, and a fake email in the email box.

Comments

[Jessica]

As usual- omg yes!

I am really aware of those intense feelings when I read parenting books. For instance, the Siblings Without Rivalry stimulated some intense sadness and anger on my part as I thought back on my upbringing and even on my current relationship with my brother and family (to this day I'm not as close as I'd like to be to my brother). The Hendrix book Getting the Love You Want (not so much a parenting book) talks about how early childhood experiences have an intense impact on us as adults and whether we are isolaters or fusers. Recently, when my mother was visiting, my son who was around 15 months at the time, was having a hard time falling asleep for a nap. He was crying and crying and did not want to be left in his room, even though it was the time he usually napped at. I usually let him cry for a few minutes tops to see if he'll calm down. If not, I go and get him and proceed to another activity. My mother said I should just leave him alone to cry (and he was really wailing), that that's what she did with us. After reading the Hendrix, I just felt like, "no wonder it really tears me up to leave him crying." I hate it. Every instinct I have says go pick him up. And no wonder I'm a "fuser"...

But, yes! The things that really get me going are when caretakers who've let me down in the past have done the same thing to my kids (I wrote Moxie about a particularly heinous incident my father pulled last fall when my son was 7 months that resulted in my cutting my father out of our lives). At the same time seeing my mother be gentle and caring with my twin girls this summer was very sweet, made me feel closer to her and was more of a healing experience. Finally, I don't think my children are old enough yet for me to say much more on this. Yes, being a parent has brought up some intense feelings for me about how I was raised. I am really, really trying to navigate some of the things that *I* know hurt me growing up and being really determined not to repeat things is not always enough. I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible and think in advance about things like development of self-esteem, supporting a childs' healthy development of sexuality, etc. You really have to have a plan to avoid the repetition the actions of your caregivers who have let you down or hurt you in the past. Or we all have those dreaded moments where we say things that are so eerily familiar it's like we're listening to our parents talk. Then you find yourself thinking, where did that come from?

Sorry, I am running on, I'm having a hard time trying to articulate a clear response to this one!

[Michelle]

I was astonished how such a tiny person could bring out such anger which of course was really just frustration mixed with sleep deprivation. I recall my daughter being three weeks old, not latching properly and me kind of yelling at her and my husband saying something, "i can't believe you just used that tone with a baby." I felt so awful.

I was also surprised at how the grandparents weren't the baby whisperers that I thought they'd be. I had a baby who cried for her first three weeks, had to be held constantly and I kept asking "what's wrong with her?" and all anyone would tell me was "You need to just relax!" Relax? Relax? HMPH!

[Ally]

In a word, yes. This has been such a huge part of my personal journey, and having Jamie 3 years ago intersected with the beginning of my grandmother's decline and death a year ago, exactly one month before his 2nd birthday.

I always knew I didn't want to be like my mother, that she was the perfect example of how not to parent. But I never realized how truly complicated and deep the scars from my childhood ran.

[Fahmi]

I am regularly overwhelmed with these feelings of, "How do I do things differently?" when I look at my son. I think my parents did a good job overall, but there were a couple things that I think impacted my self-esteem and confidence growing up (lots of cultural stuff). I have to constantly be on guard about repeating stuff like that, and I am very lucky that my husband helps me identify when I fall into that pattern. I read a lot of books, and I have a background in child development, so I know what to keep an eye on, but it still gets me sometimes.

We are pretty close with my extended family, and it's difficult when we are criticized for raising our child "differently" (focusing on the child's routine, not our routine, for example) than the way the older generation raised us. Some of my older cousins also act as if our ways and methods are a criticism of how they raised my nieces and nephews, which is ridiculous. But I do look at them sometimes, and think, "Well, you did do that wrong, so ha!" which shames me to no end.

When you have that many people criticizing you, it's hard to not start thinking, "Maybe I am the one destroying my son," despite the fact that he is cheerful, curious, and independent. It's hard to override that worry, and it really bites when you really don't have anyone to talk to about it. I can't really go to my mother and say, "I am wondering if I really am doing this wrong..." when she is one of the many people complaining that he goes to sleep by 7:30pm. So I just grumble inside my head a lot and ask my son for hugs. If he is hugging me, I can't be doing too badly right?

[Ally]

That's a very terse answer to a very complex question, but this is not the day that I want to revisit all this. So instead, the answers can be found here:

http://allyo.wordpress.com/2007/02/01/sing-the-goodnight-song/
http://allyo.wordpress.com/2006/08/10/no-pooh/

[caramama]

Yes! I *just* had a talk with my mom about how much she is letting the Pumpkin "fuss" to fall asleep. My mom is generally fantastic with my daughter and my sister's daughter, both of whom she watches all day. But recently, she's told me how she lets the Pumpkin fuss a little bit to get to sleep. Not bad in theory.

However, I have very vivid memories of being about 4 or 5 and calling out for my mom when I was having trouble getting to sleep (this happened numerous times). She wouldn't come, and my dad would yell to me that she was trying to sleep and I should go to bed. I was so upset and frustrated that she wouldn't come. And hurt. And apparently I still can't get over it.

This is why I won't let my daughter CIO. I know she right now she would be too young to remember, but it was so traumatic for me that I don't want her to feel the same at any age. This is also why I had to question what my mom considered "fussing."

I'm happy to say that she truly wasn't working up to a cry and I'm much more comfortable having had the talk with my mom. But I am amazed at how often my own feelings from when I was 4 years old come back to me when I hear my baby cry or think about her crying it out.

[Amy]

Not so much the anger, but I was surprised at how much having my own child brought out my hidden fear of not measuring up to my mother's expectations of me. Pre-baby, I wasn't even aware that I felt that way. But I see it now in the way I get all defensive when she offers advice. The way I look at the scrape on Button's chin after a fall and think "what will my mom think? My mom would have been able to prevent that." Really, I'm totally shocked at how much I worry about proving to my mom that I can be a good mom. And I find myself hoping that Button will like to cook and garden and sew - activities my mom had hoped to share with me but I had no interest in. As though I'm hoping my own daughter will make up for my shortcomings as a daughter.

[Megan]

My mother died in a car accident when I was 18 years old, and I find that any major event (getting married, birthing my son), brings me back to that moment and makes me feel like I am all alone in this world. (It doesn't help that my MIL is an alcoholic and will never be a positive person to turn to.)

My mom wasn't a perfect mother by any means and fought plenty of personal demons, but she found true joy in having children.

Even though I can't call my mother up for advice, I'm trying to embody the joy in parenting that she had...the sheer glee in being around this little person. But it can get damn lonely, being a motherless mother.

[Willow (like from Buffy)]

My little monkey is only 2 1/2 months old, but I am trying to know him better than my parents knew me; I'm 31 and sometimes feel like my parents are just now learning what I like and don't like, what my emotional reactions are, how to teach me. My mother has said that it wasn't until she had grandchildren that she thought of a child as a person in her own right, an entirely new person with a new set of preferences and a new personality, different from her parents. She can think of my son that way, but still has difficulty thinking of me that way. In that sense, having a child has been healing for me -- I often would cave before to my mother's self-assurance on what was "best," but as I insist on what I feel is best for my son, I feel some of my own assurance coming back. Breastfeeding -- I do, she didn't -- is an example of this. I'm not critical of her choice to feed formula, but I wanted to breastfeed, and it's going well (I'm amazed at how well it's going, really, he's fat and healthy and happy and smart), and when she criticizes me -- it takes too much time, no one else can feed him, you don't have enough milk, he's always hungry -- I find it easier and easier to say, "That's my choice, and I'm happy with it, and there's nothing wrong with what you did, because I turned out healthy too, but I'm doing it this way."

A side effect of being criticized through my entire life is that when my son cries, I feel as if *he's* criticizing me. Not true, of course, but I hear it, and it's been hard not to hear it. I can't really talk to my mother about this, and my husband gets angry when I tell him what my mom says; he doesn't like to hear it, and after he shouted at her for making me cry while we were planning our wedding, I feel as if he may go off and I'd prefer for that not to happen. But I read blogs like this one and I do my own blog writing (which both Mom and my husband read), and that always helps.

[Melissa]

I guess I'm going to be a voice from the other side of the fence or coin or whatever. I think my folks must have done a pretty good job with me and my sister because I don't think we have any abandonment issues or feelings of having to measure up to how we were raised. Just the opposite really - I mother how I want to and I let my mom's comments roll off my back. Not that they don't bother me. On one hand she'll say something to the effect that my child owns me because I hold her if she wants to be held, nurse her to sleep, race upstairs if I hear her cry, etc. But then she'll turn around and say I'm a good mom, albeit a fierce one (but I kind of like that term). I usually don't go to my mom for advice although sometimes I'm curious to know if I had similar habits to my daughter when I was that age (my little Bean is currently 13 months).

So either I'm doing okay on a mental level or I'm repressing something big time . . .

By the way, I would suggest to everyone out there that faces criticism to say what Willow says:
"That's my choice, and I'm happy with it, and there's nothing wrong with what you did, because I turned out healthy too, but I'm doing it this way."

[michele, aka yoni hat momma]

5 days into a weeklong vacation with hubz and my 2 and 1 year olds, i can say with certainty that my anger/fear/anxiety gets going when they "upset" daddy. As a child, my mother was always trying to keep us quiet so my dad wouldn't get mad. there were 5 of us, so i don't imagine that that was an easy task. Like a PP, I remember crying down for my mother, and having my angry alcoholic father come up ... terrifying to me as a child.

My hubz comes from an angry mom, so he -- again, we all initially parent the way we were parented -- would yell at the boys. Me, being the moderator/quieter/keeper and sole arbiter of everyone's emotional barometer, would do everything humanly possible to keep the boys from upsetting daddy. Because conflict makes me nervous.

SO, as we have been tandem parenting on vacation for 5 days, it has Become Painfully Obvious I need to deal with my issues. I bought a copy of Positive Discipline and am teaching hubz by example.
We don't have to parent the way we were parented.

[KP]

I was molested by my grandfather, who also molested my mother. Now that I am a mother, knowing what that has done to me, and know that SHE knew what it did to her just blows my mind. I would literally lay my life down so that my son didn't have to experience what I did, and feeling that my mother didn't feel that I was important enough to protect just blows my mind. It causes a lot of anger and resentment in our relationship.

[Rbelle]

I hope no one minds that I'm commenting in spite of not yet being a parent, but this is a really interesting topic to me. I actually think my parents, my mom in particular, did a fantastic job. I don't have any memories of early childhood abandonment issues and my mom is still one of my best friends. Still, there's always something you wish your parents had done differently. One time I can remember my mother "failing" me, and I don't even know if you could call it a failure, happened when I was in middle school. The short story is, I met some kids at a local football game, they teased me over something truly stupid, and I was mortified. Really, REALLY mortified. I don't know why it affected me so much, but I know it bothered me for a few *years*, in part because I lived in a small town and ran into those same kids periodically (though they never even talked to me again). After almost a year of constantly fretting over it, I finally told my mother, and she was pretty dismissive, thinking it was a pretty silly thing for me to be so upset over. She was right, from an adult standpoint, but it broke my heart at the time that I couldn't count on one the person I thought would be my staunchest ally. I didn't really get over the fear (of being teased again) and embarrassment until I started junior high, had one of the kids in my class, and realized he didn't remember me one bit. It seems so stupid now, and with four kids to look after, I'm not sure I can say my mother "should have" done anything differently. But it doesn't stop me from hoping that when I have kids, I'll be tuned in to them enough to see when something that would seem trivial to an adult might be tearing them up inside.

In most things, though, I think my mother was an excellent parent, and I worry more about my fiance's family, and how we're going to manage them once we have kids. They're very, um, good-hearted people, for the most part, but I look at his siblings, his neices and nephews, and some of his cousins, and wonder how my fiance turned out as good as he did. It sounds snobby, but I ALREADY don't feel like I'm going to be comfortable with my kids spending too much time around my in-laws (although my future FIL is great). I don't know how much of their parenting style (which was both overly punitive, IMHO, and underprotective) has rubbed off on my fiance; we talk about parenting in the abstract and it feels like we're on the same page but I worry about what will come to the surface once we actually have a child in our arms, and whether we'll be able to make our parenting styles mesh. I know it's really early to be concerned about this, but whenever we spend a lot of time with his family I start to panic. I know we need to talk more about it, but how do you say, "Honey, I love and respect your family, but I don't think I want any of them babysitting our kids?" Like, ever.

[m]

I feel like I could write pages on this, but ultimately: yes, absolutely. I love our little, expanding family and we're all so happy and loving and I hope that we can keep it up. I want the family that I didn't have: one in which we actually *talk* with each other, are interested in each other's lives, support each other. I know families like that exist, I just hope we can pull it off. I look at my father and I wonder what happened? What did I do that made him lose interest in my life? Why would every time we come to visit, he'd rather watch tv than talk with us? I see him be so happy and loving with my son and I know he must have been the same way with me. When did this change and why? I don't want this to happen in my family. It baffles me that it could, but it will be something I will work at my entire life. My son is almost 18 months and I already think he's an interesting person. I can't wait to see how his life unfolds, who he becomes. How could any parent not?

(Okay, I'll stop now. Really, I could go on and on and on....)

[Anon]

I feel completely the opposite of what you're describing, Moxie ... my parents did an OUTSTANDING parenting job, and I struggle with being as good a parent as they were. We do very little differently than they did -- they are my barometer for successful parenting. I can only hope to be as good a parent as they were.

My struggle is with other parents. I'm surprised at the ferocity of my RAGE when I see or hear about parents who mistreat their children. It INFURIATES me to see or hear of parents doing things that are PROVEN to be detrimental or damaging to kids (Baby Eintein videos, for example). I'm ashamed of the level of judgement I find myself sinking to when I see a tiny baby at a smoky restaurant after 8pm, or speak to a mother who didn't at least try to breastfeed becuase "it's too inconvenient" or, God forbid, "gross."

The 3 "mantras" I've tried to train myself to think when I'm feeling like a self-righteous supermom are ...
1 - I'm not everybody's mother, but I can parent by example. My responsibility is to do what's best for MY kids and MY family. Maybe someone will reconsider what I think are their poor choices if they SEE me making different ones. That's got to be infinitely more effective than a self-righteous lecture!
2 - Everybody begins with the best intentions. I have to believe everybody is honestly trying to to what's best for their kids, even when their decisions look thoughtless or ill-informed. I try to go with that assumption before any other.
3 - I don't know the whole story about that family's situation.

I know this is basic, human stuff. But it has overwhelmed me since I've had kids. I hate that I get so angry at what I define as mistreatment of kids, because I KNOW a lot of that stuff is mistreatment only by MY definition.

I thought I was a pretty live-and-let-live kind of person before I had kids ... I'm working to get back there.

[Mary]

It's like you are reading my mind with this question--I've been thinking about these issues so very much lately. My mom died when I was 12; my parents were divorced, and after some juggling around with relatives I went to live with my dad and his new wife, where I never felt entirely welcome. Her death is something I thought I'd come to grips with, until shortly after my oldest daughter was born, when I felt this big, heavy, ancient grief swallowing me up. Not depression--grief. Like Megan said, feeling utterly alone in the world all over again.

All this came up again recently when our beloved, trusted family babysitter ( a grandmother, hmmm) turned out to be stealing from us--identity theft, credit card fraud, etc. Without that support--someone I paid to be my support!--I felt at sea again. Bereft. We're all alone in this parenting thing, no family nearby, no older generations to advise us, and sometimes I really feel it. There's nothing like someone else's bottomless needs to make you feel how very bottomless your own needs are. I struggle, all the time, with trying to be a good parent to my two little girls when inside I still feel like a little girl myself.

Geez, then there's my dad ... but that's a whole nother can of worms ... Thanks, Moxie, for starting such thoughtful discussions.

[Rachel]

I love this forum! I am so heartened to read that others struggle with how they were raised not *harmonizing* with how they want to raise their own children. I have both camps in my family. My mother is the “It’s your baby…it’s your problem.” This is how her mother reacted to us grandkids. My MIL is of the, ”There is no possible way with your college education, 30 years of life experience, and success so far that you would ever be able to care for your children as well as I can.” camp. So getting help is always an internal battle of which side I want to put up with. It does not help that my husband thinks the sun shines out of his mother’s a** when it comes to any parenting type advice. Grinning and bearing it and reading that I am not the only one with these problems really helps. Thanks Moxie. Thanks to all you other readers and your comments.

[Moxie]

Rbelle, you're definitely welcome to post on this. I wanted to say that I also think my mom did a fantastic job (and my dad, too, within his health limitations). Parenting my first son brought out all my anger at people besides my own parents. What's fascinating to me is that parenting my second son inadvertantly revealed something about me and my mother and her mother and her grandmother that I'd never known or put my finger on before. I thought it was just a little disconnect in the way my younger one and I were relating to each other, and chalked it up to having bonded so closely to my older son. (That's another topic entirely--guilt over not being as closely bonded to the second baby as to the first right away.)

Then I casually mentioned it to my therapist (stop laughing--I really didn't think I meant anything by it) and followed up with, "I guess he just gets it from me because my mom says that's what I did, too." I honestly just thought it was part of the When I Was Little lore. But then my therapist said about two sentences connecting my baby behavior to my son's baby behavior and all of a sudden about a billion little things, reactions, family stories, etc. all clicked into place (it was almost an audible click in my brain) and I was just stunned, because it was like my entire family legacy for 100+ years was summarized in that little thing I just thought was a disconnect.

Hmm. Why was I able to comment on this but not put it in the main post? Anyway: I think letting myself be soooo angry when I was parenting my first son allowed me the freedom to start following the trail with my second. I am so grateful to have had this revelation, not only because it helped me fix the disconnect with my second son (in, quite literally, a few days), but also because it's given me so much more insight into my relationship with my mother, my mother, her mother, my great-grandmother, and myself.

[Megan]

I read "Parenting from the Inside Out" as I was preparing for pregnancy - I had my usual issues with the writing, but found it to be thought-provoking, at least in that it opened my eyes to the idea that becoming a parent was going to stir up a lot of unexpected stuff.

My main issue these days is that even though my parents are local, I don't particularly want to leave the Magpie with them - they enjoy her a ton (not me so much, just her!) but don't seem to have any intuitive sense of what she needs at any given time. Perhaps more time together will help that intuition thing. And don't get me started on how they don't drive so well anymore...

book: http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Inside-Out-Daniel-Siegel/dp/1585422959/moxieandaskmo-20

[Kel]

Oh yes. Isn't that part of the journey? In the same way our spouses are here to help us along with the lessons we need to become the best person we can be, aren't our children our window into all the things that can be fixable, not in our own history, but in our present? (gosh I hope that makes sense)

Another reason I am grateful for being an older parent is that I think I have more coping mechanisms to deal with the heavy lifting parts of parenting and also to capture and cherish the magical moments. I can grasp both intellectually and emotionally and deal with them. I'm not always 100% (darn it), but I think I'm more able now than if I had parented in my twenties or thirties (I'm in my forties with a 5 and 2 - 2 year olds).

My own parents were hit and miss, which I think is average. The misses where pretty impressive (bitter, nasty divorces; alcoholism, etc.), but the hits were so much better than what my partner experienced that I do feel fortunate in many ways.

Part of what I'm experiencing in the "how am I going to do this differently" vs. "how do I want to do this the same" is the perspective that they were doing all of this at an age (both in terms of their own in years/maturity and this culture's maturity) when they couldn't possibly have had the skills to deal with parenting any way but the way they did.

Beyond their maturity level, there was no Donahue, Oprah, Google, Moxie, www... did they feel like the only parent who sometimes resented their kids? Probably. Did they ever express that to anyone? Probably not, because there were no forums to do so. How lucky I am to have all these resources (and yeah it can be too much too, but its there at least).

My own inner test is that I can look at my children, even in the heat of battle (at their worst and at my worst) and know that they are experiencing a stable, secure, expressive, responsible, and hopefully respectful, creative and energizing childhood. And if I think they aren't, then its up to me to fix it and that is way okay.

Kel

[Cathy]

This is sort of tangentially related - not anger at/about my parents but about my step-son's mother. What I found after having a daughter was that I had much less sympathy for my step-son's biological mother. He had been living with my husband since he was 2 1/2, with not much contact from his mother. Step-son was 3 or 4 when we started dating, 7 when we married, and nearly 9 when La was born. In those 5 or 6 years, he visited his mother 3 times and spoke on the phone only occasionally.

So, here I was with this newborn baby who had just come from my body, and I so couldn't imagine carrying a child for 10 months, being there into toddler-hood and not being able to simply keep in touch with him. A postcard? a phone call? She was really missing out on having a good relationship with a (her) nice kid. This was my perspective in the post-partum days.

Of course it's complicated, as these things are - having to deal with an ex, having 3 other kids to take care of, etc, but I still think she could do a better job of keeping up with him.

[Charisse]

I have to say yes, and I'd have to type so much family history to say all of why. Moxie, when you talk about how much your relationship with your mother helps you, I just feel like you're from another planet. I hope you take that in the right spirit--it's just like talking to somebody from the other side of the religious/non-religious divide. I can respect and honor the person totally, but I can't fathom living there.

Don't get me wrong--my mother is a kind and loving grandma to Mouse, which I fully expected and am so heartened to see. Though interestingly as Mouse gets older it seems to be harder for her and she's doing some stuff from really old patterns. But we really only have one parent between my self and Mr. C who's able to be a supportive parent to adults. That's my dad, and unfortunately due to some insecurities of my mom's I'm fairly sure he's been explicitly discouraged from having close conversations with us for the last couple years. I miss that so much--this reminds me that I need to make the effort to ask him about parenting more often because he really was great when we were kids.

As far as my mom, she constantly complains about what a strong-willed child I was (the phrase "you have had a mind of your own since the day you were born", said through clenched teeth, comes up whenever I do something she didn't expect)...and I find myself experiencing a lot of frustration when Mouse is stubborn--which, damn, she really is and no surprise. I both empathize with my mother's rage for control, which I feel viscerally, and know how deeply I don't want to parent from that place, and am angry that I didn't grow up with more skills to help me parent from somewhere better. Quel cocktail.

I do know from therapy and practice that you have to let go of wishing your parents were different. They are who they are and if that's not all you needed, far better to face the grief, move on, and seek what you need in your life. But wow, thank you for the smack in the face to talk to my dad about parenting--on the one hand the fact that he'll talk to me about the non-mom me is a balm...on the other, he's the most effective parent either of us had, and I don't doubt he'd be willing to share his wisdom. I've been missing out on that, and I'll have to find a way to get with him without causing a massive contretemps with my mom. But now I will. :)

[Jean]

I too lost my mom young (diagnosed with a brain tumor when I was 17, died when I was 22), so there are many, many moments when I wish I could turn to her and ask her for her opinions, was I like this, is C as much like my brother as I think he is, etc. I have lots of fond memories from childhood of things Mom did with us, and I want to recreate that with my own kids. Not too bad so far.

Where I get scared is when Dad's side starts to come out of my mouth. Harsher than need be at times, maybe unrealistic in expectations. And it comes out more since C arrived, with sleep deprivation for the past 2yrs, which makes me feel so much worse for whatever reason. I remember being so amazed at my dh's attitude of "I don't care if I don't do it well, I'll try," as opposed to my "I'm not going to try because I don't think I can do it, and I'll look stupid when I fail." Lately I'm realizing how much of that comes from my dad, and really from his childhood. I don't want my kids to feel that way ever, which means I need to temper my Dad-itude and work harder on my Mom-itude. It's just not easy on those days when C has had me up every 2-3hrs, I have home stuff with a deadline, school stuff with a deadline, and C and M are pushing each other's buttons.

Never mind that I'm now trying to learn how to parent my parent as well as my children. The joys of being a sandwich family, huh?

I will never be perfect, but I can keep trying to improve. That's all anyone can ask of themselves.

[Stephanie]

A counselor that I had talked to re: post partum depression recommended the book Birth of a Mother. The basic principle of this book being that some much is focused on how to raise a baby and not much on this profound change in your life. The author contends that once you have a baby you have to reevaluate your relationship with your own mother. I highly recommend the book.

I have always had a close relationship with my mom, but my personality is very anti-advice on any kind. Before I had the baby, I was annoyed by any advice from my mother and thought I would rely on books or experts to tell me how to raise my child. Well, I just sold all my sleep books on ebay and I'm realizing that my mother's advice, council and understanding are much more valuable.

[Amy]

I have the opposite reaction to raising my three kids... I have a better understanding and appreciation of what I always saw as my mother's short-comings. The best example I can give is bedtime. I HATED going to bed and would beg and plead to stay up, have someone lie down with me, to sleep in my parents' bed, etc. I wasn't just being manipulative... I was genuinely (though irrationally) afraid of the nighttime. Fast-forward to my own kids... they want to be "snuggled" at bedtime, they want water, they can't sleep... I always thought I'd cater to their every need at night b/c of my own fears... but instead I find myself overwhelmed by them. I can see now that what I saw as my mother's short-comings was more likely just exhaustion from working full time and caring for me.

This is just one small example... I certainly don't model my mother on purpose... I don't yell at or slap my children and I try to to place a value on their deeds (things she did to me), but I've also learned to cut her some slack. I call her frequently now to thank her for having done her best and to tell her that I now see how hard it is to raise kids and to try to do the right thing day in and day out.... If I didn't have children, I suspect I'd still harbor some real issues from my childhood.

[Amy]

That should have said "I try NOT to place a value on their deeds..."

[rudyinparis]

From my personal perspective I don't have much to add (or maybe I have so much I could never get it all down)... But did want to say 2 things--

1. A coworker and good friend and I were talking about this very issue awhile back and she mentioned how being the parent you wished you had had can be so healing. That somehow you're not just giving your children what you wish you had been given, you are also in this way giving it to yourself, too.

2. Hedra yesterday described herself as healed. This moved me so much, the way she wrote it, and filled me with an odd fierce happiness. You know, that humans can be so resilient, that a child can endure such suffering and yet someday (with a lot of work) be healed and be "over it", and move on. And just be a whole person living their life to the best of their ability. I'm having a hard time putting it into words! Maybe it made me happy because it helped me feel that even if (I hate to even write this) something of that horrific nature happened to one of my children, that they too could recover and be healed. So it made me feel hopeful and happy.

[AmyinMotown]

Absolutely. I feel softer toward my mother than I have in a long time since parenting Maggie--who, according to my mother, is exactly like me. I can understand a little more how hard this must have been for her, to be alone with two small kids and moving constantly. She was a young mother at the beginning of the women's movement and for her to have taken advantage of some of that would have been like asking her to sprout wings and fly. She literally could not have done it (she's INSANELY devoted to the impressions of others). I am a worlds better mother to a small child than she was --Maggie never worries whether I like her or not, I think -- and in my uglier moments I think "Ha!" In my better moments I think of course I'm better. I have the influence of your wonderful, loving father, a spouse who doesn't travel a lot for work and so is available to help, a family nearby and willing to help, and you're 10 years older than she was when she had you, so you have the benefits of maturity, of having worked through a lot of your childhood issues before you became a mother, and of having had that freedom and life of your own which was willingly set aside to concentrate on mothering for awhile.

I do have a horrible time forgiving myself for the moments when I lose it. I have never hit her but have yelled, loudly, enough to scare her and make her cry. I think the difference between me and my mother, fundamentally, is I am able to force myself back under control and soothe her, apologize to her and tell her I shouldn't have done that and mommies make mistakes too. I don't rage for hours or make her feel like my losing control was her fault like my mother did. But I just can't shake the feeling I am turning into her and am going to fuck up royally just like she did. My husband is amazing and helps me feel like a regular human mom and not a screeching monster, but those are not My Parenting Greatest Moments.

Now, finding yourself repeating the same patterns in your marriage as your parents had and THAT scaring the crap out of you? That would be an intersting post.

[Anonforthis]

Am I the only one who had such sudden and intense rage for my husband and MIL (separately, but nonetheless, those are the two people I have been so angry with during the postpartum time)?

I've never much cared for the MIL, but I really used to think the husband was a nice guy.

[Kel]

Ditto on what Rudyinparis said of Hedra's comment (beautifully put "odd fierce happiness"), I had the same feeling.

Kel

[Sarah]

Hi Anonforthis -- I have no idea the details of your husband's character or behaviour, of course, but just wanted to let you know that my husband was also the recipient of my most intense rage during my postpartum period. I raged and screamed at him in front of our baby son, which I regret deeply, deeply, to this day. My son is now almost 8 months old and I feel really differently. This might not be the case for you but for me, honestly, I look back and believe I was raging as a result of sleep deprivation, hormones, the "rage-aholic" example of my own mother, and because my husband wasn't living up to my expectations and I had NO patience, understanding or sympathy for that. If your situation is anything like mine, it will pass. Our marriage is back to normal, and I love and respect and appreciate him like I used to pre-baby. Not because he has changed so much (though he better at this 'baby thing' now!), but more because I am rested, hormonally-balanced, happier myself, settled into motherhood (for this week or month at least :). Hang in there.

[pnuts mama]

oh crap, you guys, way to make me break down and have a good cleansing cry during a perfectly good naptime! moxie, once again you have been able to express things i feel and often cannot put into words let alone fully understand.

before i forget, two commenters reminded me of these two books: motherless daughters and motherless mothers by hope edelman. i haven't read the second yet, and the first made me feel meh at the time, but for those of you out there on your own, it's a resource. also, for anyone interested on a fantastic book on comprehensive human sexuality (albeit from a christian ethics perspective) i couldn't recommend the book "body, sex and pleasure" by christine gudorf any higher. so there's that.

***
my experience of being a mommy has been life changing in the ways you described, moxie, unleashing feelings and actions i never could have expected or been prepared for. rage? check. grief? check. issues ranging from control to insecurity to abandonment? check and check.

my biological mom died when i was 15 months old and i don't really think i handled it all that well as a kid (i kind of obsessed over it), not that i remembered her, but i know i put her on an impossible pedestal that she didn't deserve to be put on. what i miss the most about her now is being able to ask her anything about being a mom, about me as a baby, having her as a support system, mom, friend, babysitter, etc. i could ask my bio dad (alcoholic), but we have issues i couldn't begin to explain here that probably influence my control issues and my trust issues and my abandonment issues. whee! i'm just a big ball of fun.

the people who raised me (family members) are the folks i consider my parents- they are my grandparents age, and my 'mom' died about 7 years ago. so there's that anger over abandonment (also triggers control issues), plus the responsibilities of caring for the man who raised me now as he ages and his health fails- (gratitude for who he is battling resentment over the situation). plus, my mom was never really a happy person with me- i don't know if she resented having to care for me at 50+ yrs old, if our personalities were just too unmatched (i can be a strong-willed PITA), or if she just couldn't relax and have fun with a responsibility that she must have seen me as. we only ever started to get along and like each other just before she died, and that sucks. i miss her for so many reasons.

don't get me wrong, she loved me and did the very best job with me that she could, but whew, when i see myself repeat some of her methods it makes me want to scream and hurt myself. i mean, seriously, i know there are plenty of you out there who never consider raising your voice or your hand to your child, but man do some patterns run deep- and it is so hard to train yourself to be the mom you want to be and break the cycle.

i definitely agree with the pp's who can look somewhat objectively with parents eyes at their elders and put some things into perspective. i'm never going to be anything other than an imperfect person raising imperfect people. i know i have to cut myself a break and probably could use some therapy to get to a place where i feel healed.

i also now have a background in childhood development so i can berate myself for potential warping of my own girl's childhood (the comment about baby einstein videos made me laugh- i'll trade a 1/2 hour a day watching a video so i can take a shower for chucking full beer bottles at my kids head when i get home from a week-long bender ANY DAY- lets keep some perspective here, ok?) with my own behavior and choices. i am trying so hard to do everything right, i wonder sometimes am i the only one who worries this much about failing? and at what point do i just let things go?

whew. i guess i needed that.
thanks to you all who give me an anonymous support network of sisterhood everyday. not that i am glad you all have struggled, just a relief to know that i'm not alone. thanks for your honestly and your vulnerability.

[Sam]

Three days after the baby was born, my parents left, telling me I'd be fine on my own. Hubby went to bed early that night because he was going back to work the next morning. And then the baby started crying. And crying. And crying. She wouldn't stop for anything. I had no real experience with babies and we had tried to talk my mom into staying with us for a few more days but she said I would do fine without her, so I was reluctant to call her. I woke up hubby, but he told me he needed to get some sleep before work and I'd have to handle it myself. I called the pediatrician and the nurse on call ran through a list of horror scenarios for me and then made me an appointment the next morning. Still no solution to the crying. By now it was two a.m. I thought of calling my doula but she told me she 'didn't do postpartum' so I figured I'd better not. I decided to call my midwife since I had no one else, and got severely admonished by her since she 'doesn't do babies' either. By this point I was weeping almost hysterically so she apparently felt bad enough to help me out. I described the baby's symptoms to her and she said, "oh, she's just hungry. Your milk hasn't come in yet. You can give her some formula if you want some peace, but if you want to breastfeed you'll just have to put up with it." I had no idea that this was what you had to put up with for breastfeeding but I knew I couldn't take it anymore, not by myself. I felt so utterly, hopelessly alone. That is probably the main reason I gave up trying to breastfeed--I just couldn't take being so alone and afraid. I still feel terribly guilty and selfish about it five months later but I felt as if I was losing my mind. Now I know the crying was temporary (she always stops eventually!) and things would probably have gotten better, but they certainly haven't gotten less lonely. I still have to make every decision myself--hubby won't take the initiative and my parents have always been very hands-off. And the terror I felt that night hasn't completely gone away, knowing that her little life is utterly dependent on me not screwing up, since it is all on me. I had no idea anything in life could be so isolating and exhausting. As for dealing with these feelings, I'll let you know how I do that once I find a way :-)

[pnuts mama]

ditto what sarah said about feelings for your spouse during the post-partum time. any decent marriage counselor will tell you that the first year of your 1st childs life is usually the most stressful in any marriage, for a variety of obvious reasons.

give it some time and talktalktalk to each other as much as you can stand it and work out what you can now, and be willing to shelve some things for when you both have adjusted to the new normal- the dynamic of having the person you created as the third party, and have had more than 2.5 hours of consecutive sleep in a row. hang in there, anonforthis, that 1st year is a bitch.

[carmie]

anonforthis, no, you're definitely not the only one. Both postpartum and ongoing, those two have irritated me the most.

My MIL feeds my toddler all kinds of junk food and then wonders why he's so crabby, changes her mind on babysitting at the last minute (I lost a job over this), and WAY overpersonalizes his every action and mood. Sigh.

I find that as my son gets older, old feelings and traumas resurface more frequently. I have never been so thankful for those two years of therapy! It's really helped me cope.

One little epiphany I had the other day: I realized that my husband is also reliving the bad stuff from his childhood. I yelled at our son in frustration over something trivial and my husband flipped out and threatened to leave me and take the boy. Once things calmed down, I realized his overly strong reaction went back to some abusive, hurtful behaviors his mom did during his childhood. Although I am nothing like his mom, his fear is that his son will go through what he did with her.

I guess it's true: your kids really do bring out the best and worst in you.

[Anon too]

Wow. this is a great topic! I am eight months pregnant with my first child (and a Daughter) and this kind of stuff has been on my mind alot while I've been pregnant.

My husband and I were really marvelling at how just the mear (sp?) fact that this child will likely be raised by two parents instead of in divorce will make her life experience so different! My parents were divorced by the time I was two and while all in all they managed to share custody in a mature way and generally raise us well, there are still all sorts of lingering emotional things that come up for me that I know were clearly tied to that time in my life. Just things like not being held or cared for nearly as much as I should have been as a baby because my parents were so stressed out and fighting and being separated (and Mom looking for full-time work after being a SAHM.) My Mom readily admitted to me later that she thought that contributed to my shyness and anxiety and general sensitivity and withdrawal that I had later.

While I have a whole other round of issues with my parents (but that I feel we have all come to pretty good terms on) it's this realization that just the developmental stages of those first few years will be so different for my daughter that really stops me in my tracks and marvel at it all!

[Lisa]

Yes, definitely. My parents were very good in so many ways, loving and competent - but being a parent to T. has made me see, and grieve for, the ways they couldn't give me what I needed - that is, respond to those specific qualities that made me myself, not just any child. And now DH and I are figuring out how to address them doing/not doing some of those same things with T. - who is so much like me.

[MrsHaley]

Sam -- I think your experience is an example of a topic that comes up around here a lot --the lack of general social/institutionalized support for parenthood. It isn't humane or 'civilized' for a culture to allow that kind of basic abandonment and misinformation to leave someone feeling as guilty and lonely as you were. In general, I wish our society was better at this. Specifically, I wish you didn't have to go through it alone. Hang in there ... it's getting better already.

[MO]

Hi... I just thought I'd pipe in. This topic definitely resonates with me. I have major issues with my parents and my upbringing. My parents were too young and way too selfish, especially my mom. She was a horrible mom but now is a pretty good friend. She never really became a mom to me - we sort of skipped that part. My dad is a major criticizer and I am super sensitive to that and in turn to anyone criticizing my children.

My mom now has selective memory and doesn't remembering not being such a great mom (my dad has the same problem but since I rarely see him it doesn't come up that often). She wants to be so hands on with my boys and I am thrilled to see her have a relationship with them and in some ways it has made our relationship better. But at the same time when I see her have some of the same negative behaviors around my boys, it really is so frustrating. These aren't major things - just small things like playing with them for 15-20 minutes and then deciding she's going to read the paper. They look at her with such longing and want to keep playing but she's not in the mood. I remember that same feeling when I was growing up.

I also can completely relate to the other posters that have been really frustrated and angry with their husband and MIL. I found myself VERY frustrated and angry with my MIL that first year with the boys but we are doing slightly better. Our relationship was definitely better pre-babies. My husband and I did better that first year and now are having more issues these 2 / 3rd years. I find myself constantly angry with him and I really don't want to feel that way. That parts been really hard.

Thanks again Moxie for having an awesome site and to all the wonderful posters for being so honest and supportive.

[grubby scholar]

I just want to echo Moxie's reading recommendation (Parenting from the Inside Out). I haven't read the entire book, but I read chunks of it for a new-moms support group ("Listening Mothers"). Siegel practices a type of cognitive and behavioral therapy that fuses meditation ("mindfulness") with neurobiology ("cognition" or the brain). His work really speaks to the ways in which how we parent depends in large part on how our brains are wired, which in turn is influenced by being "mindful" of those wirings. I should say that he's not an essentialist: he doesn't actually suggest that parenting is biological (although he does suggest that our emotions are so). From the first page you'll be hooked. Here's a quotation:

"In the absence of reflection, history often repeats itself and parents are vulnerable to passing on to their children unhealthy patterns from the past. Understanding our lives can free us from the otherwise predictable situation in which we recreate the damage to our children that was done to us in our own childhoods....By making sense of our lives we can deepen a capacity for self-understanding and bring coherence to our emotional experience, our views of the world, and our interactions with our children."

Thank you Moxie for the tip (and, as always, the blog...)

[pnuts mama]

grubby scholar, i think i heart you.

moxie, your comment made me think that it really is important to try and understand our parents in terms of their own upbringing and parental relationships/situations. that insight can be a crucial step towards wholeness and acceptance as a parent- breaking cycles when necessary, embracing other idiosyncrasies.

[Jean]

To anonforthis, you are not alone. I had a couple of instances after C was born that I referred to as "baby reds" instead of "baby blues." I wasn't sad, but anything and everything sent me into this scary, horrifying rage. I went to the bedroom and stayed there all day, until it passed, only making human contact to nurse. Fortunately I could see that it was ridiculous and irrational, and most likely hormonal. I let my dh know what was happening, and he left me alone to get past it, which was the best thing for both of us.

Hang in there, it will get better.

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who raised an eyebrow about Baby Einstein. Not saying it's great, but I read far worse things in the paper every day. I save my rage for those events.

[Liss]

As always, so many good observations here. My relationship with my parents is fantastic in so many ways, but there are a few things they did that were frankly quite damaging. One of the most important ones was a completely warped presentation of sexuality. Although there is so much they did for which I am beyond grateful, I look at some of the parenting choices they made and it leaves me very discouraged.

Anon - could you point us to the studies you're referring to that prove Baby Einstein videos are detrimental? Thanks!

[JA]

Wow. Just yesterday my therapist and I were talking about this topic re: my husband and his bipolar alcoholic mother who is currently on death's doorstep. She told me about this researcher Harlowe, who put little baby monkeys into 4 groups: one group with their bio mothers, another group with mothers who were not their own, another group didn't have mothers at all, and a final group with these wire and terrycloth fake mothers who would have food for babies and even be warm for them....but not much else. What he found was that (obviously) the monkeys with their own mothers did the best (and that we all know is a relative term), the ones with no mothers became very "bad" monkeys, the ones with mothers not their own were fine for the most part, but had some strange mating patterns, and the monkeys with the wire terrycloth mothers just did not thrive, and many of them died.

My husband had a wire terrycloth mother. And believe me, you can tell. It kills me to watch him struggle with being a parent, knowing that hyper-control is his way of organizing his world......and that on a deep level it pains him to see the mothering our son gets from me on a daily basis....mothering he never got. Not once. Ever. And that sadly I bear the brunt of his anger, hurt, and frustration....and of course it is impacting our marriage. The parenting we did not get does not only affect us, but it impacts our spouses too......and even the most understanding spouses have their breaking points.

[Anon]

I think my point, which apparently I did not communicate well, is that some of my anger IS irrational. I KNOW it's in response to some things that are not necessarily a big deal. Your reserving indignation for the bigger things is the point I'm aiming for, Jean.

I'm surprised everybody didn't know about debunking Baby Einstein. I thought it was all over the place. Here's some general coverage about it:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1650352,00.html

I know "too much TV" is, in the big picture, a small thing. That was kind of my point. The fact that it's so pervasive and has been in the media lately is why I used it as an example. I guess its inconsequentiality didn't speak for itself.

[Aardvark]

These are great comments. Fahmi, I caught something you wrote and then looked at your name (and then remembered your question about visiting Pakistan) and put 2 and 2 together to figure out your extended family must living in Pakistan? The reason I ask is that mu husband is Moroccan and his family (and entire culture) has this "thing" about letting children stay up VERY VERY late - like midnight, or just whenever. Even my husband thinks it is strange that I want our baby to sleep before 10 p.m. (the baby usually goes to sleep between 10:30-11:00)... Is this a common thing outside the U.S.A? Sorry to butt into the topic and to generalize, it has just been on my mind so much...

Carry on!

[Liss]

Thanks Anon - I had seen that Time article but wondered if you had come across something beyond that.

[Lisa]

I had (have) a wire and terrycloth mother too. My husband, on the other hand, is so close to his mother that they speak at least once a day. Before our son was born my husband and I had many disagreements about the state of my relationship with my mother, largely centering on his perception that I was failing to give her a chance, and being too hard on her. I vascillated between being incredibly pissed off at him, and understanding that he just wanted my mother and I to have the kind of relationship that he and his mother had. Ain't gonna happen. Horse is out of the barn.

Then my son was born, and my mother stayed with us for a few days because her siblings pressured her into doing it as the "right" thing to do, and it clicked for my husband. He actually kicked her out of our house. And he's never gotten on my case since then about my not giving her a chance.

I want a different sort of relationship with my son, which may be part of why I do everything almost opposite from what my mother did at this stage (first year): we breastfeed, co sleep, don't CIO. I shower him with physical affection, and I really do feel it....but deep down, lingering in my chest, is this fear that I will still turn out like her, and that our relationship will be as crummy as mine is with her. I'm particularly worried that if we are lucky enough to have more kids and I have a daughter, I'm really gonna fuck that one up.

[sally]

Oooooh yes.

Breastfeeding my son has been one of the most rewarding, wonderful, magical things I've ever done.

But I do also find that my feelings of rage toward my mother are most vivid during the nursing sessions.

I don't really know why, except that all these emotions must be tied in together. It amazes me that I can sit there, stare down at my perfect son in quiet awe, and at the same time be so MAD at my mother that I'm biting my lip and practically growling.

And yes - so many of my decisions are now informed by my desire to be Not My Mother. Everything, from the way I wear my hair to how I eat to the way I speak...I make these choices with an eye to being as different from her as I can be.

But I know that is a form of control as well, and it gets me all the more frustrated.

Before my son was born, I could tell you I disliked my mother. Now, I can tell you that I actively hate her. It makes me upset that this sad realization is part of my warm and fuzzy Mommy experience. But...well...there it is.

[pedant]

I am loving this conversation, but I just want to clarify something about the Harlow monkey experiment. One group of monkeys had bare wire "mothers" while a different group had wire "mothers" covered with soft terrycloth; the latter gorup did much better and spent a lot of time clinging to their soft "mothers"--a finding that Harlow used to argue that mothering went beyond providing physical nourishment (both groups drank milk from bottles mounted on the mothers). His research suggested that infants would only thrive if they received comforting physical contact, as well as nutrients. Sorry to be didactic.