More on PPD and Q&A on breastfeeding in front of a 3-year-old

Jillian wrote me to add to Friday's post on PPD after weaning:

"I wanted to add to your "trifecta" of massage, omega-3 and exercise. Add: High potency B vitamin pill, like a B100 or Stress B. Consider adding 500-1000 mg of magnesium citrate pills per day as well.

Many women who have been pregnant and nursing, and on birth control as well (!), have become borderline deficient or downright deficienct in B12 and B6, among the Bs, as well as in magnesium. B vitamins are absolutely required for the body to make serotonin. Low serotonin=depression. Many women who suffer from PMS are B vitamin deficient as well. You can google or pubmed this stuff, but I looked into it extensively. I also found my PMS, cycles and moods to improve considerably with a B100 (on top of my high potency multivitamin) daily, plus 500 mg mag citrate.

You can safely take a B100 on top of a multivitamin that provides tons of B, because B isn't absorbed that well. It's what makes your pee green when you take vitamins, actually."

Very good to know. Thanks, Jillian.

And now a question from Anon:

"I can't seem to find any info on the subject of breastfeeding in front of a 3 year old. Do you think it is it healthy to my 3 year old's psyche to let him see me breastfeed his baby brother?

We are expecting in November and I never thought this would be an issue but my husband thinks it is weird that I still bath with my toddler and now he thinks it is "unhealthy" to let him see me nursing the baby. My son is now noticing that my anatomy is different to his and is starting to be curious about it and it kinda freaks my husband out a little. I weaned my son from the breast at around 13 months so I doubt that he remembers anything about nursing. I just wondered what you thought about it."

I can appreciate that your husband might have some qualms, because our society is so geared to thinking of the breasts as sexual and not functional. But he just hasn't thought it through logically: If it caused psychological damage to watch a baby being nursed, then every older child of a nursing mother across the world would be psychologically damaged either from having watched it or from being sent into another room every time the baby nursed (talk about a recipe for sibling rivalry!). Moreover, there are tons and tons of kids who were still nursing at the age of 3 and have no psychological problems. So your husband can turn his worries from nursing to all the other stuff that's going to happen when the new baby comes in November.

(This is the point at which I plug the book Siblings Without Rivalry by Faber and Mazlish. If you're having another child, if you do absolutely no other prep, read this book. If you already have more than one child, read this book. If you have siblings, reading this book might help you understand your relationship with them better and could help you improve things between you. If you're an aunt or uncle or interested adult in the life of siblings, read this book.)

On a related topic, it's very healthy for your son to learn, in a factual way, about the differences between boys and girls. His noticing that you and he have different parts is great, and any factual, age=-appropriate explanations you give him are going to help him. It's also going to be healthy for him to learn all the normal things about babies--how they're fed, that they pee and poop, that they cry and need to be soothed, etc. It's all giving him more information about the way humans work.

It sounds like your husband may be very concerned about the inappropriate sexualization of your son. That's a really valid concern, especially in our society (Bratz, anyone?). But withholding factual information about basic differences will actually backfire by making him more vulnerable to information coming from other sources. A kid who knows the facts and has all his questions answered honestly to his age level is going to be much better equipped to live in a world that sends some really confusing messages about our bodies.

Comments?

Comments

[Treena]

As I'm sure many others will write, it's totally normal and appropriate to breastfeed in front of older siblings. I breastfed my second baby everywhere, and we'd often attract crowds of toddlers watching. Their parents were often embarassed, but I told them it was no big deal and just let them watch and ask questions. It's what our bodies were made for, after all. I was much more relaxed about the public nursing stuff the second time around. I even pumped in front of my dad and college-aged brother a few times.

My older son was 2 when the baby was born, and he didn't express interest in nursing originally, but did start to when he was around 6 months old (which was the height of our sibling rivalry). I didn't have an issue with a kid that age nursing, so I bared my breast to him and held my breath when he approached with his whole mouth full of teeth. Turns out his idea of nursing was just putting his face close to my breast and making sucking noises. (He expressed surprised he wasn't getting any milk, but seemed OK with that.) He asked to "nurse" pretty regularly for a few months, and now it's been weeks since he's asked so I think we're past that phase.

[Liza]

I think the thing more likely to cause anxiety or problems for the older child is tension between parents on this issue.

Anon and her husband need to talk through the issue and come up with an initial game plan that they are both reasonably comfortable with -- recognizing that how things really work may require significant adaptations of that game plan. Maybe they could also meet with the pediatrician to discuss the husband's concerns and sibling adjustment more broadly? (I'm assuming a BF-supportive doctor here!)

FWIW, in my experience, it is often possible to nurse an infant so discretely that no one notices. And I never did the blanket over the whole process thing, either. I would guess that the older child mostly won't find it terribly interesting.

[Jan]

I have a friend whose 3-year-old boy had pretty strong opinions of his own about the whole thing. ("Mommy, put that white thing away" -- referring to her bra!) I think it was kind of how his sibling rivalry showed itself.

My daughter (18 months when her brother was born) went through a phase where she wanted to nurse, too, so do be prepared for that, along with your son wanting to do every other thing the baby does (hello, the baby's going to have a ton of your attention!)

Moxie, I'd love to do a Q&A day on the SWR book, similar to what you did on Independence Day with the cultural questions. I read it recently and would love other moms' takes on some of the stuff -- specifics on what worked, etc.

[rudyinparis]

As Moxie touches upon, the logistics of *preventing* your son from seeing you nurse are pretty spectacular. I'm not even sure how that could be done. I have 2 daughters, so this didn't apply to our family, but it seems your husband could take a great proactive role here with your son in regards to sex roles and such. It may make your husband more comfortable with these types of issues if you stress how important--essential--he is as a role model for your son. The mom gets a lot of attention, but in this instance it's his place to shine! Best wishes to you for a easy pregnancy and birth.

[Nutmeg]

I agree with Liza that the bigger problem would be any tension between mom and dad... That said, I am rather hardcore in favor of creating breastfeeding normalcy and see no reason anyone of any age shouldn't be present while I feed my son. But especially, as Moxie suggested, a young child for whom it would be instructive about the differences between men and women... not to mention instructive about how normal it is to feed a baby this way.

This weekend I nursed my son in front of my two five year old nephews who, frankly were too busy to pay much attention.

Good luck!

[Slim]

My sister warned me that her five year old son was very interested in the concept of nursing and told me to prepare myself for an audience. I assured her that I had nursed while chasing my preschooler through the Museum of Natural History, and one nephew was nothin'.
When we all got together and I was nursing, he passed me, backed up to look, and wandered off in a matter of seconds, calling, "Mom? Nursing's kind of boring."

[hedra]

No time to read the other comments today, sorry!

I breastfeed in front of my older kids. Twins, at that, which means absolutely NO chance of modesty most days, at least not tandeming.

My oldest is 9, and is definitely in puberty (he started growing peach fuzz at 7, now has some color coming into the fuzz... early puberty, whee?). And yet, I breastfeed in front of him. Openly. His brother, at 5, same deal.

Psychological issues? None. The main thing that has happened is that they think that breastfeeding is normal. It DEsexualizes women to know their bodies have multiple functions. I remember being awed by the neighbor mom breastfeeding, myself. It was just so cool that our bodies could DO that. It was like a science/biology lesson, fascinating, amazing. In my experience, the kids I know (and I know many) who saw their moms breastfeed at an age when they could remember it tend to be less prone to over sexualizing themselves (girls especially), and less prone to sexualizing other women. They know deep down that these parts have many purposes, not just one, and that seems to soften the obsessive focus that the culture provides on bodies being exclusively sexual in nature. Not research, there, just my observation - though I'm sure the functional, natural, relaxed and open attitudes about bodies in those families probably contribute to the general feeling that all our bodies are worthy of respect.

I hope the dad in question considers what issues he wishes to communicate to the boy in question. Does he WISH to teach that breasts are all-powerful seducers of the powerless male, or that they are disgusting and not to be seen? Because by placing the breastfeeding in an off-limits scenario, it kind of implies one or the other.

[Kay]

I nursed both my kids no matter who was around. Never in public b/c I could never do it without my boppy pillow, but anywhere else, out came the girls.

I still let my 5 year old son see me naked. And he also bathes with his 2 year old sister. He watched me nurse her for the 8 months I did, but never asked to nurse again. We always just told him that he used to eat that way too. And that some day he would help teach his sister how to eat "big kid" food. I let my son turn on my breast pump to make the whoosh whoosh noise. I also let him help me burp his sister. Breast feeding is normal. No reason to make it a secret.

I have a wonderfully supportive husband for breastfeeding.

[ABCD]

I have a question for Jillian if she is reading --- Which multivitamin do you take? I find the array of choices overwhelming!
Thanks.

[ABCD]

I have a question for Jillian if she is reading --- Which multivitamin do you take? I find the array of choices overwhelming!
Thanks.

[Epiphany Alone]

Hey Moxie,

Thanks for doing this bit about PPD and nursing cessation. I stopped breastfeeding my now 15-month old about a month ago, and am just starting to get back to feeling normal.

I second (third? fourth?) the B-complex supplement. By itself, I would say it had the largest impact, then T-Tapp second. If I forget my flaxseed oil or my magnesium supplements, I don't usually notice, but if I don't take my B, I really feel it.

I'd also say make sure you're still drinking enough water. For me, it was easy to remember to pour a big glass of water and drink it while nursing, but now that I'm chasing a 15-month old, I forget until I have a headache some days...

[Linda]

Huh.

I never even considered not breastfeeding this soon-to-arrive baby in front of my 3 year old twins (girls). Breastfeeding is normal and I want them to learn that. We've talked about how they used to drink milk from my breasts and how that's usually how babies are fed and how this baby will be fed.

The other stuff~bathing together and being naked~is a family decision. My husband is much more aware of nakedness and doesn't use the bathroom or change in front of the girls while they regularly talk to me in the bathroom or watch me change clothes. My kids are very interested in girl parts vs boy parts and we talk about them regularly and how they're private, etc. I would never want my husband to be uncomfortable in front of our kids and his views on nudity and appropriateness are valid, but I don't see how you can NOT nurse a new baby in front of your son. The logistics are just horrendous.

And Bratz: Gag.

[Alison S]

My daughters are now 12 and 9, so it's a while since I breastfed, but - my personal best was feeding the second one when she was - oh, maybe 4 months? - while pushing the trolley (cart) round the supermarket (it was that or abandon the shopping) - AND NOBODY NOTICED. (I really don't think they were just being polite - nobody even glanced at me twice or did a double-take.)
With respect, I think this question says more about the lady's husband's attitude than anything else - why should something that has been normal for humanity for millions and millions and MILLONS of years disturb her son, or even register on his radar as somehow different from any other baby-related activity, except for society's expectations?

[pnuts mama]

i have 6 nephews that range in age from 2 days older than pnut to 13 years and i nursed in front of them (and their moms did too) w/o a problem. i think the biggest thing is to explain to the little ones that they were fed in the same way, mater-of-factly, and move on. kids rarely make an issue of things unless the adults around them do, too. and teaching kids that bfing is normal is a wonderful lesson to teach at an early age.

with the two older boys (both approaching puberty), i chose to keep my nursing modest in front of them (also a blanket helped keep pnut on task instead of whipping off to look around at what all was going on) just to help them feel more comfortable. while nursing is natural and normal, i also respected the fact that older boys (and so many men) are going to react to a boob regardless of what it's doing, and while they knew what was happening, they didn't need to have it all in plain sight. it would probably be different if they were my sons (as it was for their moms, who nursed openly in front of them all).

also, moxie, the second part of this question reminds me of a previous one where we all talked about naming parts, knowing their functions etc. my husband and i had a big enlightened moment thanks to that post- we both were unsure what to start calling things, but the quote "kids who call their body parts by their actual names are significantly less likely to be abused" sold us 110%. it can be hard in a society that hasn't really let go of it's puritan roots (but oversexualizes everything at the same time) but were happy to have that in our toolbox when people question us. so, thanks!

[LEB]

I'm shocked that anyone would consider it problematic to feed the baby in front of its sibling. I don't think I'll ever stop being shocked (and depressed) at such perverse attitudes to breastfeeding.

I would have thought it was infinitely more damaging to the psyche of a 3 year old to be shooed away so its mother could feed the new baby in private.

[Andrea]

First off, let me say - I <3 Hedra's responses! If she had a site of her own, I'd visit her daily, too!

While I've only had experience nursing one child, this one child, whom I'm still nursing, has taught me a lot about what I'm comfortable with. While I'm not an advocate of calling attention to breastfeeding, I do it when and where necessary and treat it as a completely natural thing because that's how I see it - natural. If you breastfeed in front of your 3 year old son, hopefully he will accept that these lumps on our chest are not just to woo men but actually do serve a completely unsexual purpose. It might even help him respect women more. Who knows? I wouldn't AVOID breastfeed in front of him, though, for fear of teaching him inadvertantly that it's wrong.

[Jillian]

Hi ABCD,

I think that I feel more of an effect with the "higher end" vitamins. Personally, I use GNC Women's mutlivitamin with iron when I'm not pregnant. Here's my regimen:

In morning:

1 Vitamin World B100 tablet (you'll actually feel it jumpstart your moods about 30 min after taking it!)
2 Vitamin World Magnesium Citrate (250 mg each)
2 Vit. World Organic Flaxseed Oil Capsules (1000 mg each)
2 PB-8 Probiotic capsules (because I have lactose intolerance issues)

In the evening:

2 GNC multivitamins
1 Vitamin World Ester-C (1000 mg)
2 Vitamin World Magnesium Citrate (250 mg each)
2 capsules Cod Liver Oil

Now, this is not all for depression. The Ester-C is for immune system, the probiotics are for my digestion. But, the magnesium, B vitamins, Flax and Cod Liver oils are for mood, and have helped me tremendously (I had PPD with baby 1, and broke through it without medication....in part thanks to these supplements. I did not have it with baby 2).

The only change I make during pregnancy and breastfeeding is a switch from GNC multivitamin to Vitamin World UltraMega Vitamin for Women. This is not a prenatal. It's better. Most prenatals suck, actually, even the prescription ones. They just have 800 mg folate, where non prenatals have only 400 mg. So I take the Vimtain world multivit, and I add a 400 mg folate tab each day. The reason I switch my multivitamin is that the GNC brand has Vitex in it. This is an herb to help regulate a women's cycle. It's very good to help moods, too, by the way, and PMS. It's present at low levels in the GNC multivit. Not present in the Vit. World one. I like it, but I don't want it when I'm pregnant of course.

[Kate]

On board with the breastfeeding is natural, oversexualization is stupid, and it would be absolutely impossible to meet both the baby's needs and the 3 yo's needs if they were being separated this much. There is only one mommy! I spent a lot of time reading books to my 2 yo while nursing my newborn. (But I am probably the wrong person to ask on this in the first place because I am still nursing them both at 3y2m and 16 mo.)

I just wanted to comment that if Anon were having a girl instead of a boy, the boy parts vs girl parts conversation would be totally inevitable. From 2 1/2 to almost 3 my daughter found the whole thing fascinating and every day, usually multiple times, we had the "who has what" conversation during diaper changes (hers and the baby's).

[kirsten]

I nurse in front of children often and if they are curious I just tell them the truth, the baby is eating. Some babies get milk from their mamas and some from a bottle and both are ok. Kids seem very satisfied with that answer and I don't have to go into details.

Also wanted to add that B vitamins and fish oil for omega 3s have saved my life after suffering ppd.

[Hilary]

All I can say is amen.

I think it is much more healthy to have a child see normal function and physiology than send him out of the room and pretend breastfeeding is something wrong, sexual or "dirty". No one would send a child out of the room because a baby was drinking out of a bottle.

[Hilary]

And now that I have read the responses, can I say I love Hedra's response, too? What beautiful writing. How did you say what I think better than I could?

[Shara]

I also agree about the B vitamins. Add a B complex and a calcium to your routine the week before and during your period and you will probably feel far less PMS-frazzled. It also reduces PMS cramps and headaches for me. I've used higher-end Shaklee B complex and the low end Trader Joe's and both seem to have some positive effect.

[hedra]

(psst, Hilary, I'm a professional writer... writing 20-40 hours a week for 10+ years helps. Unfair advantage. ;) )

[Luann]

As a sibling, I can tell you that I remember very distinctly coming into the living room one night (age 6) and finding my mother nursing my new baby brother and it totally freaking me out. I have always vividly remembered the sight of her in the chair holding him, and me being very upset, but it wasn't until a few weeks ago, while nursing my own new baby, that I remembered what bothered me so much. It was the sight of her pulling him off and wiping the milk off her breast.

I was a very literal minded child. Milk is something that is supposed to be cold: it comes from the fridge. If she was feeding him milk from her body, than it must be cold, and that was wrong because her body was warm when she hugged me. I didn't want her to hug me and have it be all cold up there. The baby was making her change too much! Gross, mommy, stop it!

As to the bathing, at our house bath time is father and son time. Perhaps that would solve some of Anon's husband's concerns.

Also chalk up another B vit/omega 3 fan.

[swimmermom]

I second (third, … ) Hedra's comment that seeing breastfeeding DEsexualizes the breasts. Kids don't have the 'lens' of seeing everything as sexual the way some adults do! To them, breasts are just a way to feed a baby, if that is how the matter is presented to them. No biggie.

I am a mom of three boys, all breastfed to age three-ish. Anon may find it interesting that my older two don't even remember breastfeeding themselves. They know they did it because we talk about it in the context of their younger brother's nursing. They are all well-adjusted re: personal privacy and human anatomy. They know that I have different parts than they do, but they couldn't care less. They've never shown the least bit of inappropriate interest in my or any other woman's breasts.

I hope that knowing about breasts' true functions will help them maintain a realistic view of girls/women as they start to mature sexually!

[hedra]

Adding in a thank you regarding the weaning PPD. The twin daughters are weaning, and I just crashed this week. DH saw it first (though wasn't sure what was up, and didn't say PPD at all), but as soon as he mentioned that something was not right, I immediately remembered this post... and spotted what was really up.

So, back on my supplements (I'd been on the O-3, I also get good results from SAM-e), and added the B-complex. I'm not stable yet (only two days), but definitely feeling a bit of upswing already. Phew!

Thanks! :)

[carolyn]

Just adding to say that I've nursed in the company of toddlers and the under 7 set and after some curiosity over whether the baby was sleeping the simple explanation that the baby was eating has been enough for them to lose interest. My friend's 3 year old promptly forgot about breastfeeding soon after she weaned her 1 year old -- 2 months later she asked me why my baby wasn't eating from a bottle.