Reader call: skills only one sex needs?

(Am I an idiot for posting this question and reigniting the discussion from a few weeks ago? Perhaps. I just think we should still be talking about all of this. Otherwise, how are we going to get anywhere?)

Craig writes:

"Regarding the Dangerous Book for Boys....

My wife and I have three boys and no girls and I've been following this discussion around the Internet with interest.  The controversy surrounding the fact that many (if not all) of the items listed in the book could apply equally to either sex sparked my curiosity.  I'm wondering if your readers (and you) can think of any skills required for one sex, but not the other (besides the obvious hygiene items).

Only one I can think of off the top of my head would be physical fist fighting.  While it is a good idea for a girl to know how to defend herself, that's different than needing to know how (and when) to start and finish a fight which I feel is a skill needed for boys."

I think that there's no real way to answer the question definitively, since there are different answers depending on how you look at it. For instance, I get the feeling that a lot of the commenters from the previous discussions on this topic (both here and on other sites) feel like we should be teaching both sexes exactly the same things because we want to create a genderless society. Others seem to feel like we should teach our kids the things they need to survive in the gender-divided society we have now. Is that glass half full vs. glass half empty? I don't know.

At any rate, where you come down on the spectrum of the all-the-same-so-let's-start-wearing-matching-grey-jumpsuits POV vs. the biology-is-destiny-and-the-market's-regulating-itself-thankyouverymuch POV changes how you answer Craig's question.

I tend toward thinking people need to keep the ideal in mind, but really need to be able to navigate the world we live in right now. So I'd say that boys need to have a working knowledge of the rules of the major sports in the country in which they live (that means baseball and football in the US) so they can have those watercooler "How 'bout those Yankees?" conversations that grease the wheels with other men. Since I'm not a man, I don't know all the other little things men have to deal with that women don't see.

For girls:

I think it's important to develop a strategy for dealing with the urge to cry that comes over a lot of us in moments of intense emotion. It's really inconvenient and unprofessional to cry in the middle of an important meeting just because you're trying to make a point, so it helps to have figured out how to back yourself off that feeling before it overtakes you.

Learning to deal with the backbiting and gossip of junior high and high school. Girl World is brutal and always has been, and the only way to survive is to have someone to help you through it, even if it's only friends you find in books.

Even though someone commented on an earlier post that she thought it was horrfying (or maybe  "repulsive," or something like that), I think girls need to learn how to walk in high heels. Knowing how to do it doesn't mean you have to do it every day, or even every year. But you can't tell me that you're going to wear completely flat shoes to get sworn in as Secretary of State, and you don't want to break your ankle walking across the stage.

I think girls have to learn how to say no. Men generally don't have as many problems with this as women do, but it's important to protect your own boundaries in all areas of life, so you need to be able to say no effectively, without guilt, and without alienating coworkers.

Your thoughts?

Comments

[Shandra]

My thoughts are that there are social expectations that differ by gender, yes, and if we don't help guide our children through them we're not doing them a favour. (Queen Bees & Wannabes is such a good book on girl social dynamics; wish there was one for boys, or is there?).

However I am not really so set on the idea that I have to teach my kids particular skills or facts or push them in a particular direction. I mean obviously those will come along.

I do think it's my job to teach them HOW to learn things, and how to evaluate what they should learn.

So I would teach my kids, for example, that it's polite and useful to show an interest in what other people are talking about, and presume that then if people are talking about sports that my child will figure out that he or she should check the scores in the paper before leaving for work. Or I model and teach that we dress appropriately, with respect for both our bodies and our situation, and let them figure out if that means high heels or not.

Most of all though I see the family as a support and buffer against those pressures. If all the kids are playing on the playground, I would definitely support my child in finding out about it, but I would not necessarily relax my standards to watch it if it were violent, sexist, etc.

I think Mary Pipher's books - both Reviving Ophelia and The Shelter of Each Other - really speak to this.

[Shandra]

Oops, sorry... playing a particular tv-themed game on the playground.

[enu]

When I become Secretary of State, I will most definately walk in flats. How are we going to make a rational society if those who have the power to change stupid trends and set the standards don't do so? Note I have overwhelming interest in affairs of state, so women, do not hold your breath. I will work for change in my own ways...

As for boys and girls fist fighting - wow, do I not agree with that. On the one hand, I think we need to _not_ ever be accepting of schoolyard violence or passing it off as normal or "boys will be boys" etc. OTOH, as a girl, I got beat up (by boys and later by girls) many more times than did my spouse, although we grew up in similar neighborhoods at the same time in history. I was pretty defenseless, as was he. I am very glad my girls have the skills (and willingness) to defend themselves (I'm also glad they've never _had_ to.)

[kelli]

The reader makes some great points about fistfights/defense and you make an EXCELLENT point about girls saying "no" (I think not being able to say "no" is the #1 contributor to all the frazzled out moms we keeping hearing about!)

However, overall I'm pretty much with Shandra - as much as I may dream of teaching my kids about certain things (college basketball, canasta, knitting, an ardent appreciation for books, a love for a good handbag), neither one may have an interest.

Primarily, I just want children who are comfortable in their own skin. Although, I'll be mightily disappointed if neither one shows an interest in college basketball.

[Ariella]

I guess I fall unrepentantly into the "genderless society" thing, although I really balk at that terminology. I do think that teaching your boys to fight is unnecessary and only perpetrating a stereotype that boys are more aggressive and violent than girls are, or that boys need to "solve" things with violence.

I'll reiterate my list for both sexes: how to cook, how to change a tire, how to write a GOOD cover letter/essay, excellent manners for all occasions (including writing thank-you notes), how to do general sewing, how to be thoughtful, and how to speak in public.

I don't think there are any gender-specific things that need to be taught to either sex because it just reinforces gender stereotypes.

As for high heels? I'm in one of those professions where I'm "supposed" to wear a suit and heels every day. Do I? Nope. Am I successful? Yup. So I guess I'm going to have to say that the need to walk in high heels is really overrated.

[happy]

Well, if we are to make blanket generalizations I would say:

For boys: Communication skills

For girls: empowerment

I thought these were great ideas from the book "Playful Parenting."

[rudyinparis]

Boys (that is, young men, adolescents)should be taught the basics of female sexual anatomy so that they understand how to please a partner, once they decide to become sexually active. I don't believe they need any help learning how to please themselves (I could be wrong, though) while I think sometimes girls need more information in that area. I know there are exceptions to that!

[Kristin]

I have 2 sisters and we didn't do a lot of 'boy' stuff. Catching frogs, worms, climbing trees, changing tires. I now have 2 daugthers and want to make sure they learn these kind things from the get go.
For boys- important to teach them to be emotionally aware of themselves and others and how to handle these emotions.
And about fighting, my feeling is that it is a priority to teach both sexes the difference between fighting and self-defence and which is acceptable and which isn't.

[Lily]

I'm torn between wishing for a genderless society, and having to live in one that is clearly not. Having recently gone on a skeet shooting outing with my work colleagues (all men), it would be hard to deny that there are differences between the sexes. (not in ability to shoot, but rather, in penchant for shooting as a teambuilding activity)

To the girl-list, therefore, I would add that I'd like a daughter of mine to be comfortable being as "girlie" as she likes without feeling this runs counter to being professional, intelligent, or self-confident. Women should be allowed to wear cute shoes and still command respect!

[Helen]

How would you teach a child to start and end a fist fight? Would you spar with him or her? Knock the child out so he or she learns what that's like?

Dude, it's 2007. Making sure your boy can fight is just so, I don't know, 1950s. It just sounds goofy to me. I'd want kids of both sexes to know how to stay away from situations where some idiot is going to start throwing punches.

Also, I really wouldn't want my daughter to be anywhere near a boy who knows how to start and end a fist fight. What's to prevent him from starting and ending a fist fight with her?

As for sex specific skills, uh, I don't know. I guess. I do agree with the first commenter, that as parents we have to help our children deal with the expectations society has of them based on their sex.

Of course, what society expects of men and women has changed over time, and differs from culture to culture. For example, today in the US I think men are expected to have much more fashion sense than even 10 years ago.

But I agree it's not good to cry at work, especially if you are a woman, and knowing how to control that is a good thing. And maybe men need to be able to make sports small talk. But I think the main thing for a successful adulthood, as someone above said, is being comfortable in your own skin, gutsy enough to stand up to the group when necessary, etc., etc.

I wonder how much this stuff is influenced by a heterosexual mindset. I wonder if gay parents have different views on what skills boys and girls need?

Also, Moxie, I don't know how tall you are, but in my experience heels as a "must-do" is a shorter woman thing. I don't think Janet Reno, for example, wore heels very often. Sure, there are tall women (I'm thinking 5'9"+) who wear heels, but I don't think it's considered so critical. I know several women under 5'5" who wear heels regularly because they feel they are more likely to be taken seriously. I am 5'8" and almost never wear heels.

Also, I feel obligated to point out that recent research indicates that heels are TERRIBLE for your knees, back, and (obviously!) feet, and that wearing them over the long term can do serious and irreversible damage. It's something to think about now that we're living so long, you don't want your body to start breaking down due to impractical footwear.

[flea]

I just wanted to note that my 38 year old husband has never been in a fistfight in his life (and was definitely not taught by his father how to have one), and while he probably knows the basic rules of most major US sports, he has little to no interest in them and doesn't make water-cooler conversation about them. (Since his workplace is staffed with a large percentage of non-Americans, this is less surprising than you'd think. Sri Lankan engineers don't talk about football much).

I mean, it's possible to be a happy, well-adjusted man in America today without either of these things. Surely manhood is about more than sports and fighting?

[Dawn]

I hope I can teach my son it's okay to say no - to not have to jump off the bridge if everyone else is jumping off -

Specifically I'm thinking of hazing kinds of things that involve just how much alcohol can you pump into your system. I hope I can teach him the skills to walk away from that kind of situation.

(Yes, girls need to know how to say no as well, this is just a specific role play kind of situation that I see more men in than women. Women are typically allowed to drink one wine cooler or glass of Strawberry Hill and play the "oh I'm sooo drunk game" whereas men are expected to pound drink for drink)

[Fahmi]

While I don't want my son to be a bully, I definitely think it's important that he know how to fight, if nothing else, for self-defense. I will always be teaching him how to avoid conflict, or to resolve things verbally instead of physically, but I agree with Moxie that we should be giving our children the tools to survive in *this* society while we teach about the ideal society.

After spending many years in martial arts, I think the key difference between genders would be in *how* to fight. Because of the way the bodies are built, teaching a girl how to fight like a boy is just not practical.

So ways to fight.

Ways for a girl to assert herself, say "NO!" (as opposed to, "No?")

[Sara]

I'm sorry, but as a girl, being able to start and finish a fight made my jr. high a whole lot better.

Whoever thinks girls aren't physically bullied wasn't a girl. A friend and I were tormented, physically, by both boys and girls, behind the back of a teacher who did nothing to stop it. I was shoved into gates, hit with rolled-up paint smocks, pushed into walls, whapped on the back of the head.

The day I turned to my abuser, picked up a chair and hit him with it was the last day that ever happened.

Later I was being tormented (and, I realize now, sexually harassed) by a kid who would run by me and hit me or grope me. Again, the day I tackled him and pummelled the bejeezus out of him was the last day he ever did that.

Yeah, I had the benefit of being a Big Girl, and physically fighting back isn't as easy an option for a girl who is 5'0 as one who is 5'8" like I was ast the time. But when words failed (and I tried them first, many times), dealing with those cretins in their own way made them leave me alone, and made *me* feel strong, powerful, and capable of defending myself.

A lot of men's attitudes about domination of women and their roles in relation to women come from their knowledge that they "can start and end a fight." As women, if we don't defend ourselves because its not ladyllike, or "girls don't fight," we get squashed. I don't advocate teaching kids how to *start* a fight, but I think I'm a pretty strong beleiver in making sure *all* kids know how to end one -- whether with words or with physical self-defense.

[Andromeda]

As a middle school teacher at a boys' school, I think all the commenters who are saying they don't want a violent society so they won't teach their kids to fight are being totally unrealistic. For certain kids, the world brings violence to you, in ill-supervised places you can't avoid (eg the locker room when there are several of them and one of you). Many kids, particularly unpopular boys, get hit. Horrifying as I (as a female who did not get beat up) find it, the kids who fought back tended to be the kids who got it to stop.

Yes, it's key to teach your kids that violence is at best a last-ditch problem-solving skill. Yes, teach them it's only for self-defense. And by all means teach them nonviolent problem-solving strategies, and how to walk around without the giant psychic "kick me" sign on their backs. But there are a lot of bullies out there who'll throw a punch even if no one taught them. Not teaching your kid how to fight, especially if he tends to be on the receiving end, does not make this magically not so.

Shandra: in re books about boys, read pretty much everything Michael Thompson ever wrote; you'll probably find what you're looking for in there.

[hajen]

"Some people want to believe society is genderless and refuse to acknowledge boys and girls grow up differently" and "some people think boys and girls are biologically different anyway so why try to break outside those societal norms" are our only options?

How about "society has very different expectations of the genders and we should educate our children to think critically about why" and "we should also think critically ourselves about the expectations we are imposing on our kids simply because of their genders"?

Way, way more useful than a list of skills like "how to walk in high heels" and "how to navigate cliques" (with the inherent implications that only girls need to worry about this stuff) is imparting to your children, starting as early as possible, with BOTH genders, the ability to THINK about these things, to think why are they the way they are? and what can we do about that? and how do we react to them when we encounter them? and especially boys need to understand how girls are growing up differently than they are, really need to understand that.

We'll be wearing high heels to "look professional" until the generations after us, each gender, is educated out of their belief that high heels are necessary or sexy or appropriately feminine. As long as men think women should wear heels, women will think they should wear heels. It starts with children, with our expectations, with the cues they're given; subverting and discussing those cues are going to make the change; not books that reinforce the gender lines either way.

[anon]

Commenting without my name as my husband sometimes reads these comments, and I do not wish to offend him with what follows.
First point: I am woman. My husband is a man. We met in college, both art students at the time. Whereas I have a natural aptitude for creating works with certain mediums, my husband is an ARTIST in every stereotypical sense of the word. It is by the grace of god that he is able to hold down a good-paying graphic design job so that I can stay home with the baby (for the time being anyway). That would be where any gender roles stop. Aside from being the Mommy, I am also the bug-killer - hubby actually squeals (like a girl?) when he sees a bug and leaves the room while I squish it. I am in charge of all finances for the house. I am in charge of yard work, car maintenance, plumbing repairs, electrical repairs, in other words - THE MAN'S WORK. Right? Soooo many women I've talked to cringe in horror upon hearing that my husband doesn't do his gender-appointed tasks. My husband is the dreamer, the emotional one, being anonymous I am free to add irrational to his list. He likes to eat chocolate, A LOT, he likes to snuggle after sex whereas I prefer to roll over and go to sleep. He makes elaborate quiches just for the fun of using so many different ingredients and cooking tools. The list goes on and on. The point is, on the surface we appear to be gender confused, but in reality I am a woman and he is a man. And our son will grow up seeing that Mommy and Daddy roles do not have to be chock full of gender stereotypes.
During my pregnancy, we dreamed of what our little boy would be like. Sensitive, quiet, polite? Respectful, peaceful, introspective? HA. I now refer to him as my little bruiser. He never stops moving, he's loud, and he loves all physical activity. When he gets old enough, he may play a sport and excel at it. Or he may settle down and decide he wants to spend his time decoupaging and reading Louisa May Alcott. Either way, we love who he is and we know that with our unconditional love and support, he will find his way through his own life, his own experiences - including the possibility of all the doozies: being bullied, ridiculed, ostracized, humiliated. And sadly, all of these things WILL happen at some point. Kids are equal-opportunity cruel. Boy, girl, big, small, doesn't matter. Everyone suffers at some point while growing up. Instead of worrying about passing on our "wisdom" about shoes, handbags and fistfights, lets focus on raising smart, confident INDIVIDUALS. If over-think this, we will end up with a lot of boys and girls who are trapped in the usual gender roles, but know enough to pretend that in fact the opposite is true.

[Kay]

Men are just as happy with a woman in tennis shoes as they are with one in "f*ck me" pumps. It's the WOMEN who are doing all the judging of other WOMEN!

I'm the only female manager in my department (1 out of 7). The guys treat me with respect, they treat me as one of the guys when I want to be one, and they let me cry if I need to. Maybe it's because I live in the South, that chivalry isn't quite dead - and accepting that someone opens a door for you doesn't mean you are dooming yourself to "helpless" status. But, I'm equally comfortable at a football game drinking beer and a cocktail party in a fancy dress and heels. I'm me. And I feel very very fortunate that I can be me without worrying what other people think.

I've also punched out a guy (3rd grade playground) because he would not stop tormenting me. Later, he became a marine, and we dated. He never forgot me punching him. And he never tormented me again. :)

Violence sucks, but when words fail, you have to make the bad situation stop. In whatever way you can. I will teach my daughter it is okay to fight - if you HAVE to. I will teach my son the exact same thing.

I think all skills are important for all people. I don't think anything should be "taboo" for one sex and not the other. I also don't think that we should force people to be genderless. I think we should teach our kids to be tolerant. Yes, the vast majority of girls will play with dolls, and the boys will play with cars/trucks. But, it is okay if a boy plays with a doll, and okay if the girl becomes the best football player on the street.

[Cecily]

I disagree about the fist fighting. As a white kid growing up in a Mexican neighborhood in Albuquerque, I got into fights a LOT and it would have really helped me to have some idea about how to fight, how to stop, and how to stop a fight from starting. There wasn't much I could do about my blue eyes--the cause of many of the fights--but it would have been nice to have some idea how to de-escalate it, or how to take a punch, or how to throw one.

Secondly, why shouldn't boys learn how to walk in high heels too? What if they want to go to a party in drag? Then they too wouldn't break their ankles.

My general feeling is that some things are good for some kids and not good for others--but that's based on the kids, not their sex.

[hedrda]

No time to read the comments, needed to get my thoughts down ...

1) I'm not into genderless, I'm into equal. They're *not* the same thing. I want my kids to be ABLE to do anything they want within the limits of physiology (theirs, specifically), but I'm sure they'll put their own spin on anything they do by both their gender identity and their personal identity. And heck, likely class identity, ethnic identity, national identity, and a bunch of other identities. My sons love jewelry. They even love 'girly' jewelry. They spin it to 'pirate' and all their guy friends think it is cool. They love clothes, shoes, and getting their hair cut - again, guy guy guy, their way. But grooming and style are still in their world.

2) RE: the fighting - boys and girls both need to know how to fight, how to fight fair, when to not fight fair or how to respond when someone else does the underhanded, and so forth. That goes for both 'self defense' type fighting and verbal fighting. Knowing how to fight enhances the ability (IME) to assess the threat level early, and may help them avoid the escalation. Yes, in our culture boys tend to solve things physically first, verbally later, and girls verbally react first, physically later... but both have to know how to manage both, and preferably, avoid/de-escalate both. (IMHO, a lot of adults forget that there's something past that initial 'guys go physical' and 'girls go verbal' thing... It is more order/sequence than absolutes.)

3) Understanding the use of and effective employment of items of traditional formal attire is on my list for both girls and boys. Knowing how to walk in high heels (okay, low heels - I think high heels are bad on a number of grounds, including because they can cause physical damage, and style items that do so are icky to me)... um, where was I? Right - knowing how to walk in 'heels' provides the basis for saying 'I can do it, I CHOOSE not to'. Position of strength when the norm is knowing AND doing. Same for tie-tying for men. Heck, I want my sons to know how to sit in a kilt without showing their underwear, too. Basic classic attire in our family, so, yes, competent people will know how to nagivate a formal situation, IMHO. And will be confident choosing appropriate professional attire for any situation, even if that means creative avoidance of a tie or heels. There are options, thank heavens.

4) My mom's experience (7 kids plus 1 added in adulthood) is that there is more difference between the individuals than between the genders. People with only one or two kids seem to lean toward thinking that the differences they see are more about the gender. They're not, they just have too small a sample, in her opinion. Feed the individual's needs, and you won't go far wrong. Feed the gender alone, and you may miss something valuable to the child.

5) Individuals need competence: good thinking skills (good 'habits of mind'), discipline, the basics of how to maintain property and care for self, relationship management skills, survival skills, and professional/social graces. That means that everyone should know how to sew enough to repair emergencies, cook enough to keep themselves basically fed, obtain transportation or transport themselves, recognize dangerous situations, perform physically/emotionally demanding tasks with some self-control and safety, be able to function well in the typical social situations we all encounter, maintain and manage their finances, and understand how the systems they use function enough to know when to get additional help. Beyond that, anyone interested in more depth on any topic should be encouraged to explore in more detail. None of them should be off limits by gender, nor offered solely on the merits of gender.

This is from my experience of siblings, really. We're a big family, and were raised under various combinations of parents and step parents. It makes for an interesting group, and proves my mom's point endlessly - differences aren't by gender. The one who is the most emotionally sensitive of the lot is a boy. The least socially adept is a girl. The interests have ranged from art (boy, girl, girl) to metal working (girl) to dance (girl, girl) to surgery (girl) to computers (girl, boy, girl) to running their own business (girl, boy)... well, you get the picture. It's way more about the individual needs and interests than the gender-based-assumption ones. All of us can dress up nicely. I'd say that probably 6 out of 8 could hold our own in a fight (with one girl and one boy the least capable). We can all cook. We all can converse on a variety of topics including at least one sport. We can all do basic sewing, and the least socially adept one is the best seamstress. We have all made tree houses or forts, caught wild animals or brought home bugs, and gotten grubby or hurt doing reckless things.

So count me in neither the 'gender trumps all' nor the 'gray jumpsuits all around' camps. My fight for 'equality' between the genders isn't about making us all the same, but allowing us all to be our own different. Same basic skills for life functions, some understanding of (but not slaves to) gender roles and the trappings of gender for formal events, and beyond that, what works for the person is what they should be encouraged to explore. And how can they know what works unless they are exposed to the whole range?

[hedra]

And I cannot type my own name, apparently. Sigh.

[SarcastiCarrie]

Please, someone teach me how not to cry at work. It's a little embarassing. It's happened on more than two occassions (once while gushing blood in early pregnancy and I will just take that one for the team as I don't think anything could have stemmed the tide). I will accept crying on my last day or when thrown a surprise baby shower, but I don't want to cry when I make tough decisions on products or strategy or unpopular decisions. So, tips?

[rudyinparis]

In a smiliar vein, any tips on avoiding blushing? I can speak with authority, but in certain situations my face and neck flush. Is there any way to control that?

[Amy]

I wish someone had taught me how to fistfight. It's not defense when you've never had to learn how to defend yourself, and find yourself in the middle of an unprovoked fistfight. It sucks. And it hurts. If I knew how to throw a punch, maybe it would have been the other girl doing the "turtle" or "duck and cover" manouver instead of me. Heh.

[Amy]

As an only child I had to be both a boy and a girl to my parents. My father and step-father taught me to fish and hunt, how to block a punch, and the rules of football. My mother taught me about babies, that you can never have too many shoes, and how to iron. While none of these skills are vital to my success as a woman they add up to make me who I am today. I don't think there are any *vital* skills a person needs in life. There are skills which might make life easier... but no amount of skills will save them from heartbreak, danger, or failure. I want my children to benefit from what worked for me so I teach them those skills. At the same time, I don't want them to make the mistakes I made, so I teach them the skills I think I lacked. Our species is a work in progress... our children are just another step along our path.

(And this is much deeper than I meant it to be... but this discussion has been on my mind as I watch my two boys and little girl grow up with such different needs and personalities...)

[ALG]

I agree that everyone should be taught how to cook (basic: vegetables, chicken, fish, casseroles, pies, etc.), clean, do basic sewing, maintain finances, deal with bullies, and handle formal situations in terms of dress, speech, manners, etc. I didn't learn all of those things as a kid and I'm still making up for it. If you could teach social skills I would add that to the list, but I think some people just tend towards the awkward.

How DOES one walk in heels? Regular pumps, even if they're only 1-1.5 inches tall hurt my feet to the degree that I cannot walk. I can wear higher shoes if they're chunky wedges or if they have instep or ankle straps or if they're sandals. But regular pumps? Count me among the clueless. It hurts me too much. Luckily, I am 5'8" and work in a field where I can wear nice sandals, loafers, or other regular leather shoes to work. (But not sneakers.... Sigh...)

Also, do tell about the crying. I run to the bathroom to cry at work when I have to. It hasn't happened in awhile, but it generally happens 1-2 times a year, often when someone challenges or disparages me. I'm okay for the moment, but five minutes later I'm gushing tears.

[MrsHaley]

ALG- re: how to walk in heels ... Lead with your hips and land squarely on the heel first. Your shoulders will fall back and your hips will swing a little more than in flats. Really stomp on the heel as you step forward -- there should be 2 clicks from each foot at each step: heel-toe. Buy higher heels that have a flat spot at the top of the footbed right above the heel itself. Really high heels WITHOUT straps are much easier to walk in -- "strappy" stilettos are the hardest of all ... I prefer peep-toe d'orsays for summer instead: http://www.zappos.com/n/p/dp/27492273/c/113779.html

Topic: I think if our children are going to live in THIS society (not a genderless or perfectly equitable ideal) then we need to teach them how to survive and flourish as a member of the gender they are ... but also how to think about the efficacy / accuracy / legitimacy of our society's gender roles and then reject / subvert / work to change them as they see fit. I don't care if I raise a "boy's boy" or a "girly girl," but I want them to choose those roles because that's WHO THEY ARE and not who our society has told them they must be.

My husband and I function along very traditional gender lines ... but my parents do not and I wasn't raised to be traditionally "feminine." It's role I have chosen after a lot of education and experimentation, because it is "who I am." Unfortunately, sometimes people assume that because I fulfill traditional "female" gender roles that I am also a vapid dolt. It is possible to be a traditional woman and not be an idiot!

[pnuts mama]

it's been interesting to see where the comments have gone, and i especially can relate to what hedra mentioned about individual vs. gender. i agree that anyone from a big family can attest to differences not always falling out gender-wise. my husband has 3 older brothers and they are so different (and of course so similar) in so many ways, they each have their list of interests and what they enjoy and excel at. my sister and i are also different as to what "girlie things" we each have an affinity for. so while i don't believe that skills should necessarily be gender-determined, they should be assessed based on your individual childs needs and interests. this would also address the issue raised above of having a kid who is gay/lesbian.

i do believe that it's important to know the way to defend yourself, and those skills are equally important for both men and women, boys and girls. teaching people how to communicate and mediate conflict is crucial to our society, but there are certain instances when defending yourself (or someone else) from harm is critical for your personal health and well being.

and finally, about the heels. i'm not sure anyone ever taught me how to walk in heels or if it was something i just figured out. i loved playing dress-up as a girl and considered it a priviledge to get my dress-shoes with a heel by the time i was in JHS. maybe i am naive, but i never realised "wearing heels" was an issue, and i worked in the professional world for a while before my current non-profit/SAHM gig. i honestly have never heard anyone be pro or con on wearing heels (except for comfort issues), or that it would ever be a requirement for a job. i don't usually wear heels unless we are getting all dressed up for an occasion, and i certainly never feel oppressed when i do. of course, i'm 5'2", so an extra 3 inches or so are a nice way for me to get to see what is on the back of the top shelf of the cabinets in the kitchen, or a little closer to smooch my husband's face. i just can't believe this is an issue, but i am interested in it nonetheless.

[doublejen]

I think the big problem with the whole conversation about what girls need to know and what boys need to know is the huge and enormous generalization it makes. How could there possibly be a set of skills that over 100 million people in this country need to have (and that the other 100+ million people don't need)? If you're a woman working in an otherwise all-male environment, it may be incredibly helpful to be able to rattle off the batting averages of the entire Red Sox roster. If you're a boy at an all-boys school who is going to be playing the female lead in a play (because there aren't any girls), it may be incredibly helpful to be able to walk in heels without breaking an ankle.

Someone already said it, but I think we need to use our childrens' interests and personalities as our guides. As much as I want my son to be able to rattle off the batting averages of the entire Red Sox roster (and to be a baseball fan in general), I can't force it on him. I don't want him to love baseball because he's a boy, I want him to love it because he is my child, and a love of baseball was something important I shared with my father, and I want to share it with my children.

All that said, I did buy the Dangerous Book for Boys for my husband for Father's Day...and I'm looking forward to reading it myself when he's done!

[hedra]

as for the comfort issue with heels, also consider the price/make of the shoe. The single most comfortable set of shoes other than sandals I've ever put on were a pair of Italian-made granny boots (around 3 1/2 inch heels) that I was considering buying for my wedding shoes. They felt like ... well, they were like walking barefoot in grass. I could not believe how comfortable they were, stacked that high! I decided against them, something about them being more expensive than my wedding dress... but I learned that day that sometimes the price tag does indicate something more than profit margins! So if you hate heels, and absolutely must wear them for something (though I have a hard time imagining that being totally required anywhere), consider pricey ones. Just like expensive bras, the difference can be unbelievable - provided you go to the effort to get one properly fitted.

Oh, maybe that's something that would be gender specific for girls... how to find and wear a properly fitted bra. But maybe that falls in the 'physiology' side?

[hedra]

On the not crying:

1) Depersonalize or ego-extract. This isn't about you, your professionalism, or your skills, abilities, self, identity, etc., etc., etc. In the moment, it is JUST about communicating the information, and that's more about the audience than about me. Pulling the ego out of it is the first step (for me). Someone else could do this job, too. It isn't about me. Even pretending for a moment that I'm quitting at the end of the day and it will be someone else's problem tomorrow help me stop hooking my identity and sense of self into my communications. This is from discussions I had with my DH more than a decade ago about ego-free work in programming. Becoming indispensible is NOT my goal anymore - that's ego. Doing the job however it needs to be done, that's my goal. Redmarks on my writing used to crush me, because it was ME being measured. Now, it is the work, and if it isn't what you want, please tell me so I can make it what you want. I don't roll over and die, and I will push back if I disagree. Perfect balance for me.

2) Pull back. Either by using conscious relaxation of the neck and jaw (and vocal cords if I'm talking), or by 'practical dissociation' (pulling back mentally so I am 'behind and above' my body, perceptually). If I take just 10% of the energy out of the communication/event, that gives me control back. I have to be careful with the dissociation, because I am overly prone to it from a rough childhood, and it tends to reassert more randomly later if I've used it on purpose. But if you're not prone to 'checking out' too much, it can be a very useful tool.

3) Epitaph Rule and The B Rule (from An Adult Child's Guide to What's Normal): Assess the situation (going in, if possible, on the fly if not) for whether it is critical enough to be the only thing on your gravestone. PERIOD, your name, this event. If that seems absurd, then it isn't worth fretting about. Good way of gaining perspective, which I otherwise tend to lose in the moment. Just visualizing it gives me the right perspective, and tends to de-emotionalize it. The B Rule (for messups) - A B grade is 80%. 80% isn't getting 80% perfect and 20% almost perfect, it is totally missing the answers 20% of the time. That's a lot. And a B is a mighty fine grade! Perfectionism is my enemy when it comes to emotional reactions. This rule helps me cut myself some slack.

Oh, and if you're not talking, also take your tongue off the roof of your mouth and let it sit on the bottom of your mouth. For some reason, that derails the stress cycle for a lot of people.

I still sometimes WANT to cry, and may even get to the wet-eyes stage if there's a major problem/crisis that is personal in nature, but I haven't lost it totally in years.

[Amy]

I totally agree with the comments that girls *do* in fact need to know how to throw and duck a punch. I was another girl who was physically assaulted on a daily basis by horribly vicious girls - and when I finally gave them a closed-fist blow to the gut (while in a headlock), it stopped. It's terrible that this is true, but it's true. I was also able to stop a bully from hitting my little brother by not being shy about whacking him on the head with my lunchbox. And my brother finally stopped coming home with bruises after my parents talked to him about when it was appropriate to fight back.

Now, throwing a punch while wearing high heels is something I'd *definitely* love to learn!

Finally - I would love nothing more than to understand enough about major sports to participate in that water cooler talk. Why should women not have the same social access to the water cooler, where many deals are made? I refuse to smoke, so the smoke break deal-making sessions are already out ...

I honestly can't think of a single skill that only one gender should learn.

[Amy]

I meant to say, "By whacking the bully on the head with my lunchbox ..." not whacking my brother on the head ... that came later. (-:

[Cathy]

As far as my little girl goes, who wears her Thomas and Superman shirts with her spikey Johathan Lipnicki (the little boy in Jerry Maguire) haircut, I would like her to handle all of the "Hey Buddy's" that she gets with grace.

And for my stepson in middle school? I want him to stand up for himself and/or know when to ask for help. Someone in his PE class picked on him last year and luckily he had a friend nearby who intervened. It took a couple of weeks. WEEKS! for him to tell us what happened. The next day my husband was talking with the resource officer about what could/should be done.

[SarcastiCarrie]

OK, nothing stressful is happening here right now and I just tried the opposite of Hedra's move your tongue thing. I put my tongue hard up to the roof of my mouth, and you know what, I got all stressed feeling in my jaw and neck and whole face, so I can see how mooshing your tongue down if you are not talking could help. Will try that next time.

[AmyinMotown]

Really great comments. I was going to argue about fighting, but then I remembered being a small, shy, new seventh grader and how nasty one girl in particular was to me, because she thought I wouldn't fight back. I wish I'd socked her a good one.

Boys need to learn how to practice safe sex and make smart decisions. I think we teach girls so much of that that boy's responsibility for birth control and what to do if it fails is underplayed. Guys I knew as a college student got away with not even showing up to the abortion, let alone doing anything to prevent it. They also need to learn no means no, in any case and all circumstances.

I like your list for women, Moxie.

[Jan]

Also on not crying ... Three things work for me.

(1) Look up. Open your eyes wide and look up.

(2) Take your forefinger and thumb and pinch the space between your forefinger and thumb on your opposite hand. Hard. Until it hurts. It's distracting, both physically and mentally.

(3) Grin and chuckle. You know how they say you can improve your mood just by smiling? If you can go through the physical act of grinning and laughing, it short-circuits the crying somehow.

Also, if you know you're gonna do it, get somewhere private and go ahead and let the tears fall down. Unless you're truly wracked with sobbing, if you wait until you're done, then gently dab at the tears, you won't smudge your makeup and noone will be the wiser. Burying your face in your hands makes an unholy mess.

I'm of a mind that it's maybe more important to teach girls about things like football and changing tires for two reasons. First, they are maybe less likely, after a certain age, to just pick it up on their own. Second, do you want to know a really cool way to impress guys? Know about football and how to change a tire. And I don't mean it's a good way to pick up guys, but it's an excellent way to show them that you are not a helpless hopeless girl. Which we'd love to think they aren't thinking anyway, but I think most of us know is sometimes how it happens.

I do want to make sure my daughter knows how to put on makeup and do her hair in a way that makes her feel pretty and feminine, because I never learned and that was fine when I was twenty and naturally pretty, but I've started to wish I knew a little more about as I get closer to 40.

I also feel much more strongly about making sure my girl knows how to avoid situations that make her susceptible to sexual predators. Sorry, but that's the statistics -- she is much more likely to be a target of that than my boy.

[LEB]

husband = never thrown a punch, me = 5'2 don't wear heels.

Both happy, successful people.

[Brooklyn Mama]

Wow, Moxie, I don't think I could possibly agree with you less. I mean, I am not for a "genderless society" by any means - but I have taught preschool for fifteen years and in each and every class there are both boys and girls who defy the stereotypes of what boys and girls "should" be interested in. We grow up in a gendered society, but I feel it is crucial to encourage all kinds of expression and interests, not just the ones that meet the gendered norms.

This whole conversation strikes me as somewhat ridiculous. I mean, if there's something that children feel they want to learn, they will learn it. I don't feel like I want my daughter to learn how to walk in high heels just because she is supposed to wear high heels. If she wants to wear them, fine. If not, fine. (The only reason I know how to wear high heels is because I am a performer and need them for certain plays. I never wear them in "real life.") As for sports? My husband is not a sports fan (except for soccer, which doesn't really go over well in the states anyway) and he is doing just fine.

Basically, I feel like our kids are going to learn gender just by living in our society. I am much more concerned with the children who don't fit the gender norms. All children need to learn critical thinking. Period.

[sara]

One thing I think girls need to know is how to make a guy practice safe sex and how their fertility cycle works. I agree, we put a lot of the birth control onus on girls as someone said, which isn't fair, but if I had a daughter I would do a lot of role-playing about getting a guy to use a condom, and having a backup method, and what to do if he waffles ("but baby, I'll pull out!") or if she ends up having unprotected intercourse.

Of course, boys should also know how to prevent pregnancy, what to do if it happens, and how to make their boyfriends use condoms, but for some reason the whole pregnancy-self-prevention-package seems different enough to me that I see it as a separate skill.

Other than that, I can't think of anything that doesn't boil down to a generalization.

Oh, what to do if you get your period unexpectedly and quite visibly in math class when you're wearing white shorts. Could have used a heads-up on that!

And how to handle it when someone you're arguing with asks if "you're on the rag."

[Nutmeg]

I think it should be instructive here, that so many women on this website have struggled with the reaction of crying in inappropriate professional situations.

There are very few men for whom this would be a difficult to control physical reaction to a stressful situation.

And therein lies the dilemma. Biology makes us different.

Society shouldn't prey on that and it shouldn't magnify it... but the biology DOES make us different.

I think not crying under stress is a great skill for girls.

I think skills that boys and girls should be taught are those skills for each that will equalize those inherent gender differences (with, as hedra pointed out, allowances for the fact that gender stereotypes are just that... and that individuals vary).

Poor communicators should be taught to listen and be heard.
The overly sensitive should be taught to remove their ego from situations it doesn't belong.
The timid should be taught to stand up for themselves.
And everyone should know how to cook, do laundry and install a new electrical switch.

[Lisa]

Kenneth Cole and Aerosoles make nice-looking, reasonably priced heels one can walk in (ooh - bendy-rubber-soled 3" heel dark-red maryjanes... can you tell I'm tired of wearing the Mom Clogs every day?)

on a slightly different note, i too bought the DBFB for my husband for Father's Day. We both loved a lot of it (cool pictures of the planets, how to build a treehouse, etc.) , but were simultaneously disturbed by the fact that it was frighteningly Eurocentric. Not just not-PC, but more deeply clueless. An example: in the timeline of U.S. history - which starts with Columbus - the only time Indians/Native people are mentioned is when they "sell" Manhattan to the Dutch for a few beads. And c'mon - Kipling's "If" as one of the 5 poems every boy should know?

[Sarah]

Hey, I love Kipling's "If"! Granted, it presents a nearly impossibly high standard, but nonetheless I aspire to be the person that poem describes, and I look forward to having my children read it in due course.

[Sara]

Does biology cause us to cry under stress? Baby boys and baby girls both cry under stress. Why do boys stop?

I've been watching my sensitive little guy deal with this, and you know why boys stop crying under stress? Because the pressure to learn those techniques that you guys are sharing above stars *early*. I see him blinking fast, depersonalizing, looking up, biting his lip.... and *I* have never told him "don't cry, big boys dont' cry..."

Society has. His peers have. Other people in his life have let him know that by 5-6-7 he needs to develop these don't let yourself cry techniques.

I know that they're cultural because *I* learned them. Because stoic German and Dutch girls don't cry either. IT's a learned response, crying or no.

[hedra]

Sara, I agree with you, we (collectively) teach boys these skills, or expect them to learn them on their own. The hard part is also teaching them to retain access to their feelings and not be afraid of the overwhelmingness of them.

Interesting study on this: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2002_August/ai_95514605

I used to think that I was somehow immune to the gender thing, and that I'd treat my kids exactly the same regardless of gender - as pure individuals. However, every time I read the details of a study that talks about how parents respond differently to one gender vs the other, I can spot myself almost instantly. I read one recently that showed that parents tend to be 'disappointed' when girls misbehaved, and angry when boys did. The cue phrase that differed was 'you know better' for girls, in particular. That phrase never once passed my lips that I know of until I used it on my daughter. Never for the boys. And then the next week, my DH said exactly the same thing, again to one of the daughters! ARGH! We discussed it, and have dropped the 'boys must follow rules and principles but don't internalize them so are instructed about the rule at each infraction, girls already understand them and are told that they already understand the rule and therefore know better' subtext. We weren't even aware we did it! The other thing we've done that is 'typical' and totally not on our radar is to ascribe skill/ability/talent lack for girls failures, and luck/bad luck for boys failures. Ouch. Boys are somehow set up culturally to be 'able, just unlucky' and girls are set up to not be able. UGH! And just a few phrases teach that, over and over and over.

Same with the emotions thing - though we at least beat the odds here and actively taught the boys how to identify their feelings, positive and negative, inward and outward, and to express them to either of us. The girls, following the boys, seem to be very similar in emotional function, other than being dramatically individuals - oldest boy is very sensitive, second boy is better described as 'passionate' (he does every emotion 100%), older twin (girl) is more volatile emotionally - fast flares and fast return to calm, younger twin (girl) is more deep-and-steady on any emotion, and tends to carry the emotion for long spans of time (relatively speaking) - once angry, stays angry, once sad, stays sad, and same for happy - relatively hard to overset her emotional cart.

Anyway, thought the study was interesting reading - especially trying to be sensitive to where I may be doing exactly those same things, encouraging or supporting one emotion (by gender, or not), discouraging or dismissing another (by gender, or not), and demonstrating some emotions clearly and effectively myself while not demonstrating control or comfort with others.

[Ariella]

I have to say that I am surprised at the amount of women saying that they cry in stressful situations. I work in a high-stress job where I've been yelled at many times by men and women (I'm a lawyer, so it's been judges, other lawyers and clients), and have never cried because of it.

When my mom died? Yes, I cried. When something sad happpens, yes, I cry. When I get yelled at by a partner? No, I don't cry. I can remember feeling sad that I didn't live up to expectations, but I hope that I NEVER cry in the office. It's just not professional and then you live DOWN to every expectation that a guy might have of you as a "woman."