Naomi writes:
"My second son, just over 2 months, is having some sleep issues. We successfully got through the "witching hour" problem at about 6 weeks, but now it seems to be back, with a twist. Every night my son is up somewhere around 1:30 or 2 am, and just will not go back to sleep until after 4. Sometimes he seems a bit gassy, so we give him gripe water. We've tried not talking to him, swaddling him (he sleeps swaddles much of the night), talking to him, rocking him...all the tricks.
As a bit of background about him, he sleeps in a bassinette beside our bed about half the time, and in bed with us the rest of the time. It took over a month before he would sleep at all (day or night) anywhere that wasn't on or touching me. To get him to sleep in his bassinette we have a hot water bottle with a blanket around it, a rolled up blanket and a cushion around his head - this means he is being touched all around, and therefore he will consider sleeping. He's incredibly tactile, loves being held.
I don't expect him to sleep through the night, but how can we encourage him to go back to sleep after his 2 am feeding? (he is exclusively breastfed). Any thoughts?"
My guess by the way you've written this is that you didn't have that problem with your first son. It must be all the more insulting to be a BTDT parent but still be bumping up against this egregious pattern.
Yes, I said "egregious." There's nothing wrong with your baby. He's perfect, the best baby in the whole world. Better than any other baby. But waking up to eat and then not going right back to sleep is egregious. And unconscionable.
Unfortunately, if you've tried all the tricks (rocking, singing, swaddling, sitting on the couch with the lights off and Food Network on very low in the background, bouncing him on the balance ball, gripe water, mylecon, chamomilla pellets, standing on your head singing the theme to "Barney Miller," praying to the diety of your choice, singing "Go to sleep, go to sleep, go to sleep little asshole" to the tune of "Lullabye and Goodnight," sobbing uncontrollably, threatening to send him in a box to your mother's house, getting a white noise machine, handing him to your partner and going into the guest room to sleep, and just lying next to him on the bed listening to him cry), then there's probably nothing left to try. Once he goes through the next developmental spurt (at 12 weeks) he'll probably start going back to sleep after he eats again.
In the meantime, the only thing to do is know that it's not your fault, it's not his fault, everyone feels really sorry for you, and it will pass. Take a look at your older son and remember that the baby will someday be a big boy who sleeps at night and can tell you what's wrong.
Sorry I don't have more for you. I wish I had a magic sleeping bullet.
If he's a big gassy, and has trouble going back to sleep when he's obviously still tired, my guess would be he's physically uncomfortable.
And hey, I have a possible solution for that! Just released research, too. If he's AT ALL colicy, it would be worth a try.
Here's the study:
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/download/2007/0102/10653879.pdf (the full text, detailing how 95% of infants with colic improved dramatically, generally noticable in a few days and definitely in a week)
NOTE: The drops are not available in the US yet. You can order them from this UK site (does ship to US and other countries): http://www.westons.com/acatalog/Online-Catalogue-INF181E.html
Discomfort at night doesn't have to be extreme to make it hard to sleep. The lack of distraction, entertainment, activity, etc., and the addition of being just plain tired will make even low-to-moderate discomforts seem much greater. We know that as adults - an itch, a headache, reflux - we cope okay during the day, but MAN does it become a problem at night! Same for babies.
Gripe water may help some, but try this, and see if it doesn't help even more.
Beyond that, dealing with the developmental leaps (and their attendant fussiness) is a challenge. Dealing with the 'hey, I thought I had this handled, how come you're different?' is also a pain (what I learned about being a parent the second/third-fourth time was that what I knew was two things: 1) they don't break as easily as you'd think, and 2) I know how to find answers. I just didn't have as many answers as I thought!).
Good luck. Read the study, and try the drops. I only wish I'd known about these when my kids were little! (They may even help for food sensitivity type colic!)
Posted by: hedra | January 12, 2007 at 09:29 AM
Moxie, thanks for the laugh. I'm going through the same thing that Naomi is, except our son is 6 months old and doesn't sleep from a combination of gas/digestive issues and (now, added bonus!) teething.
The most frustrating thing is that his "tired" crying overwhelms any other cry or behaviour that might tell us whats wrong, so we have to cycle through a number of "treatments" each of which take a bit to work. The other frustrating thing is, of course, that I'm so very tired during the day that my work is suffering and I'm afraid I'm going to get fired for the mistakes I'm making during the day. But that's another post.
Posted by: anastasiav | January 12, 2007 at 10:39 AM
Discomfort is my thought, too. I don't suppose you've added anything new to your diet lately that you consume between the go-to-bed feed and the 2am feed? If you have, that might be bothering him and keeping him up after he eats. My daughter reacts that way to fish oil, which I used to take after she went to bed but before I did... and then after her first middle of the night feed, she would be up for hours.
Posted by: Dani | January 12, 2007 at 10:40 AM
Oh, by the way, the probiotics worked for kids with a family history of allergy, and had more impact than general elimination/avoidance diet (all were asked to reduce/eliminate the big 8 allergens as well. That helped some, the probiotics helped more.)
I did just do the diet analysis to figure out the issues with my kids. It was annoying, but worked. I'd likely have done that anyway, even with the probiotics, but I suspect that doing both would have made a huge difference.
The other thing that comes to mind suddenly is just plain nursing behavior. Is he really awake at that feed? If he's not working down well into the hindmilk, or if your supply is higher (mine is higher at night and early morning), then you may have just a 'functional' discomfort - that is, foremilk/hindmilk imbalance, not because of your supply per se, but because of the nursing pattern. With I think Brendan, if he just kinda woke to nurse, he'd just top up a bit and only get foremilk, which meant he'd be a) hungry again, and b) gassy and uncomfortable in very short order. I had to nudge/jiggle/wake him a bit to get him to focus and really work on the nursing, enough to get a full letdown. If he just sipped a bit, we had more trouble, and more wakings. If he really filled up, he was then down for the count.
Posted by: hedra | January 12, 2007 at 11:11 AM
i would second what hedra said about getting enough hindmilk- our girl would do that no-sleep-but-not really-eating thing too between 2 and 5 am- i honestly don't know how i got through it- the sleep deprivation and anxiety and exhaustion was worse than anything else i had ever experienced in my life- although as moxie said, you look back at it with the eyes of a survivor. we also used gas drops- either the mylicon or the gerber version at *every* feeding- always between sides during a change and they seemed to help. i'd squeeze the dropper in the side of her mouth then quick give her the pacifier to help her suck them down. i swear those gas drops got us through the 1st few months of her life. i'm interested to read that report on the probiotics. and i too needed to really examine how what i ate was affecting my milk and her reaction to it. it was a lot of work which is hard when you are so tired (and i imagine even more difficult with an older child) so best of luck to you.
our girl liked to be held, too. so what i ended up doing for all of our sanity was just holding her while we both slept for those hours for a couple of months. note- we used a co-sleeper (side car) and i had my pillows stuffed up behind me so i was in my nursing in bed position with a big down body pillow wrapped around me boppy-style. basically i was wedged in so i couldn't fall over (or if i did the co sleeper was next to me on that side) and my husband couldn't roll into/over us. we'd sleep that way for awhile (many times she'd still be latched on) and if i woke up and she was done and in that deep sleep part of the cycle, i would switch me for her pacifier (our kid is really oral- she has used the paci with no nutritional detriment since nearly day one, but rarely a bottle, go figure) and gently get her back in the co sleeper and lay down for the next stretch. she was also a swaddler, and what i would do is loosely wrap a larger warm blanket around her while i held her that would warm up with us so when i put her down it wasn't such a shock from warm to cool. obviously you have to be careful with blankets in the crib due to SIDS so use your best judgement on that one. i'd tuck it in real good on the sides so it couldn't get loose.
my final experience was using a swing- we had the fisher price aquarium one given to us at 12 weeks by a cousin that i will nominate for sainthood- we thought swings were a bit extravagant but my god did it ever save my sanity and probably my life. what i liked especially about ours was that you could adjust the seat to lean back or more upright (nice when she started solids) and it went back and forth or side to side. and we could swaddle her and lay her in it and put the tray on and she was snug as a bug- no risk of her falling out. that swing was a sleep inducer! she'd be swinging away and poof- off to sleep! for hours long stretches! it was the only thing she slept in during the day for months, what she slept in when she got a cold and needed to be upright for breathing, what she slept in when we went away for overnights, we'd bring that thing everywhere, it really was our savior. everyone we knew told us "don't get her used to sleeping in that swing" but you know what? when you are exhausted and the baby is so little who cares- you do whatever you can to get them to sleep. sleep training (in whatever form) comes later when they are bigger and not needing to eat every few hours. best of luck to you- hope your sleep improves quickly!!
Posted by: pnuts mama | January 12, 2007 at 12:01 PM
I was going to suggest the swing idea, too. And also when burping, hold your baby on your lap, chin in your hand (or over your shoulder if he likes it better that way)and don't pat. Patting breaks up the gas into lots of bubbles. Sit there like that until you get at least one or two good sized corkers. Then sit still another 10 or so minutes, just to make sure. That really worked for us.
Posted by: liz | January 12, 2007 at 12:15 PM
Oh yes, I remember well! I just sucked it up and let our now 7.5 month old sleep wedged between my arm and body until about 3.5 months at which point I started rolling away from him inch by inch until he wound up in his co-sleeper by about 4.5 months. It was the best way to achieve peace in the night. And I learned to sleep immobile on my back.
We've been seeing the BABY CHIROPRACTOR (yes, it's true) because I was worried that our tummy sleeping babe would end up with cervical problems that might lead to SIDS (read that somewhere) and the Dr. said that if there was ever any cholic or other digestive problems that chiro would help. It's another thing to definitely try after Moxie's extensive list! (by the way, lying next to baby while s/he's crying doesn't work and usually leads to mum in tears too)
Posted by: susan | January 12, 2007 at 12:42 PM
Oh, I feel for you!! Mouse's other tiny baby nickname (in addition to Squeakymouse, hence the whole thing) was Farty Jones. Not positive you're dealing with gas, but it sounds an awful lot like some kind of discomfort if you've got a clearly tired babe fussing with wide open eyes. For what it's worth, Mylicon worked a lot better than Gripe Water for us--wish we'd had the stuff Hedra found out about!!
Other things you might try if gas is the issue:
-take Beano with any meal that has beans, broccoli, cabbage, even salad--the enzyme helps your body break down the compounds that cause gas. For us it seemed to help baby too, so I assume it leads to less of those compounds getting passed through the milk. Does not, however, have any impact on gas caused by garlic or spice.
-we had an infant massage book by Vimala McClure that had a great routine for gas/colic.
Good luck, hang in there!
Posted by: Charisse | January 12, 2007 at 01:22 PM
Oops. Link to the Vimala McClure book:
http://www.amazon.com/Infant-Massage-Revised-Handbook-Loving-Parents/dp/0553380567/sr=8-1/qid=1168626030/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3524439-4075105?ie=UTF8&s=books
Posted by: Charisse | January 12, 2007 at 01:25 PM
I used a fleece kangaroo pouch/sling to get my daughter back to sleep after night feedings. I would swaddle her, tuck her into the sling, then get some laundry or other housework done (my daughter loved/loves motion to get to sleep). It made me feel a little better to at least be somewhat productive during that up time, instead of sitting in the chair crying and dwelling on how horrible I would feel the next day. Good luck!
Posted by: charissa | January 12, 2007 at 03:17 PM
My wee one used to do that as well, around the same time. Sometimes he was gassy, and sometimes he was just wide awake (and smiling) for no apparent reason from about 2 to about 4 in the morning. I'm still not sure what that was all about, but it passed. Sometimes I think they just try to weird you out, though.
Posted by: Carmen | January 12, 2007 at 05:56 PM
I had the exact same baby!!! (And please, oh please, don't let this third one follow in his sister's footsteps!)
Same exact scenario. Would wake to nurse about 1am... then stay awake VERY unhappy until 3 or 4am. Fundamentally not a problem if she'd been the oldest, but being #2 it meant that I had a toddler who would awake about 3 hours after she went back to sleep. It all added up to a lot of sleep deprivation and frustration. Here is what finally worked for her:
I would nurse her on one side, change her diaper to arouse her, and then nurse her on the other side. (Did same thing with older brother and no problem.) Aaah, but the diaper change was over-arousing her. It took me about 6-8 weeks to figure this out. I finally stopped the diaper change in between breasts, and voila, she slept. It meant she didn't always finish the second breast, and she slept in a known wet diaper (which drove me crazy) but she did sleep... which was heaven.
(Please, oh please, oh please don't let #3 be a nighttime waker...)
Posted by: Amy | January 12, 2007 at 05:59 PM
Moxie -
First, thanks for posting my question. And from your response, I would think you were sitting in the room with me. You are absolutely right about my first - at 3 months exactly he started sleeping 11 pm until 5 am...which would be absolute heaven right now. I've not gottne more then 2 hours of consecutive sleep since this baby was born!
IT's been about a month since I wrote this...baby boy number 2 is now just over 3 months old. Things have not gotten better, in fact, they've gotten worse.
My husband threw out his back, so I've been the sole nighttime parent. I've also gotten a cold, and because of the incredible sleep deprivation, not been able to get rid of it. This is just compounding the problem.
He's waking up around midnight or 1 am after going down about 8 or so. Between this time and around 5 am, he's in the bed with me, and yes, he's snacking. I agree with the poster who suggested the foremilk/hindmilk problem. It's just so difficult to get up and feed him properly.
I'm working on it. Having the cough/cold that won't go away doesn't help, either, so I'm not getting good sleep even when I do sleep. We've started limiting his daytime sleep as well, all in the hopes that it will work.
So, suffice to say, yes, I know he is normal. I'm just so frustrated! I don't want to supplement him with a bottle of forumla, but that's my possible next step...if he'll take a bottle (he won't take a pacifier, which is probably part of the problem!!)
Thanks Moxie!
Naomi
Posted by: Naomi | January 12, 2007 at 08:37 PM
Naomi, one way to try to correct the foremilk/hindmilk imbalance is to only feed on one side for a set period. For example, only nurse on the left side between 9 and midnight, then on the right side from midnight to 3, etc. That way, even if you're too tired to stop the snacking by sitting up to do a real feed, it still slows down your production enough that it may increase the ratio of hindmilk to foremilk you have available.
When I lived in Mexico if I got sick I could go into the local pharmacy and get them to give me a multi-vitamin injection. Knocked the cold right out within 24 hours. If only you could get those in the US and Canada.
Posted by: Moxie | January 13, 2007 at 12:49 PM
You might find some useful info in the book _Sweet Dreams: A Pediatrician's Secrets for Baby's Good Night's Sleep_ by Paul Fleiss MD. He explains how our circadian rhythms and daily hormone cycles work, and how to use that information to help your child be ready for sleep at the right times. For example, he explains that melatonin is one of the big factors in good sleep, and it turns out that sunshine exposure in the morning actually sets a person's internal clock so that your melatonin kicks in to make you naturally sleepy at night. It helps with kids' naptimes too. There is other good stuff like that in the book.
The other thing that comes to mind is reflux (I didn't read all the comments so I hope I'm not repeating). That could certainly explain being unhappy and unable to go back to sleep after a few hours of being in a lying-down position.
Posted by: swimmermom | January 14, 2007 at 12:53 AM
My daughter did the same thing as a newborn, then slept really well from 4-8 months (like 11-12 hours at a time!!). I was the envy of the neighborhood, but then when she was 9 months, she started doing it again. Not always unhappy, just...awake. 3 hours sometimes and I was ready to lose my mind. But at a year she started sleeping well again, until 18 months, yada yada, she's 22 months now and doing fine. I think Moxie's ideas about sleep regressions are really on point.
The long wakeups are annoying and can be debilitating, no doubt about it. But you know what? I've come to realize that I actually do the same thing sometimes...about once a month I'll have a 2-3 night period of insomnia when I fall asleep fine but then am awake for hours in the middle of the night. So I figure it could just be an inherited pattern - I've tried to shift my focus to long-term coping until she's old enough to entertain herself in the middle of the night.
Anyway, it sucks and I feel for you. It's so hard since you're the only one available at night right now.
Posted by: lydia | January 14, 2007 at 06:54 PM
Hang in there! I'd consider trying the probiotics regardless - some of them help digest lactose, which is the 'problem behind the problem' with foremilk/hindmilk issues (too little fat, too fast gut transit, too much lactose ends up in the colon, then you get gas and pain).
If there's any food intolerance issues, formula won't help. Grit your teeth, try the probiotics, keep working on the feeding pattern (I, too, recommend block feeding - just feed from the same side at the 1 am feed as you did at the 8 pm one, or feed from whichever side is LESS full/engorged, if your brain is too fuzzy to remember which was the assigned breast).
Good luck!
Posted by: hedra | January 15, 2007 at 11:13 AM
You know, I forgot something on this one--must have blanked it out, oy. It won't work at 12 weeks, but the swing is the same kind of thing so maybe that will help.
When Mouse was brand new, we used to do the whole Happiest Baby on the Block 5 Ss routine after all night feedings. Swaddle, side, shush (white noise), sway (jiggle the head)...and continue it until about 10 minutes past her actual drop-off. Don't know if you tried that but it did help for us. I'd nurse, then hand her to my husband for the treatment, then put her in her bassinet by the bed.
I hope things get better soon!!!
Posted by: Charisse | January 16, 2007 at 01:45 PM
Crap, what a laugh this site is! I've recently become a mom for the second time but it all feels brand new again. That goes for my husband too. In the beginning, our precious little bundle seemed to be doing just fine with latching on. But over the following week it became apparent that his idea of 'latch' was akin to vampirism. He sucked two great lesions on my nipples forcing me to resort to around-the-clock pumping. Unfortunately, and much to my disappointment, I'm now exclusively formula feeding. Two positive notes on this, though, 1) he's a lot more content so we think my milk was causing him some discomfort because he settles a lot easier now. 2) My husband very willingly can partake in the feedings.
I laughed out loud Moxie, when you were desribing the lullaby singing complete with, 'go to sleep little a-hole...'. How true is that?!! Now I know it's not just my husband and I that are feeling the effects of severe sleep-deprivation, it's all new parents. It's nice to commiserate with other people. I've lost the point of my post, just feeling a part of some insane - 'what-the-hell-were-we-thinking-having-kids - club!
OH YAH!...
I would suggest attempting a formula feed for your baby for the late-night feed and here's how to do it: My husband came up with this idea and I was against it to start with but, because it actually works most of the time, I'm all for it. He props the bottle of formula in our babe's mouth with a rec'ing blanket and monitors him without taking him in his arms. Baby feeds peacefully and doesn't get used to being in our arms, has waaaay less gas and consequently goes back to sleep within a 1/2 hour of eating. All the while, he's still sleeping or almost fully asleep. I named it the Phantom Nanny...it's worth a try.
Posted by: jen | January 20, 2007 at 02:25 PM
I seem to have the exact same baby at the moment, too! Always sleeps...well, like a baby between 11 and 2 AM (or thereabouts), then just won't really settle for almost the rest of the night (last night he went back to sleep at around 6:30 am, for example; very charming indeed). At least he rarely really cries, but he's just fussy and squirmy and can't fall asleep. I have a question, sort of related: what do you guys think about burping at night? Anyone else out there that just... uhhh... doesn't do it? I feel like my little guy is already so on the verge of waking and has such a hard time finding peace after waking that I almost never do it, unless his squirming starts during or immediately following a feeding. He always wakes up so fully when I really burp him, I am totally loath to do it! Any ideas? How do you all do the burping thing without rousing the little tykes to the point of no return?
On a side note, even during the day, he only seems to burp when he's good and ready- nothing I do can seem to prod one out of him, so it usually seems like a coincidence when he burps at a time when I am actually trying to procure one from him! This also makes me even more sceptical about nighttime burping - I don't want to spend a half hour futily trying to get him to burp, only to end up with an unburped but wide awake baby! On the other hand, it almost feels sacriligious- one ALWAYS burps after feeding, or at least it seems that one learns it that way pretty much by the time one starts playing with dolls, am I right? Anyone else out there with a burp-resistant baby?
Posted by: Emily | January 23, 2007 at 01:51 PM
I know this post is late but if anyone is looking for help with colic, check out this site with a ton of colic products:
http://www.colicshop.com
Posted by: Monty | April 20, 2007 at 10:16 AM
what about sleeping on their backs?
my baby doesnt like to sleep on her back
she sleeps in her car seat and sometimes on her swing (which is slightly bend)
any tips PLeASE!!!!
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