Before we start today's Q&A, does anyone know how to get black Sharpie permanent marker out of a pair of new jeans? Jamie needs help, and I've got nothing.
Now on to the question. Our own regular commenter Charisse writes:
"I'm really enjoying the posts on more serious subjects...I've got a couple minor but frustrating issues I'm totally stuck on. Mouse, now 2.9, has recently started calling me by my first name just about all the time. Especially in her imperious moods, she says "help me do this puzzle, Cyd" and "hey Cyd, I want a cup of milk please" (yes, I do pause in my annoyance to appreciate the please and recognize it for progress!). This just bugs me, but after I tried telling her to call me mommy a couple times, she now does it with a smirk. I also tried telling her that my name is for anyone, but she's the only person in the world who gets to call me mommy...and she said "oh am I? OK, Cyd" with more smirk. I don't know if I should just let it go and she'll grow out of it...or if she'll be calling me by my name forever if I don't nip it in the bud. If she had just learned that I had a name besides mommy I'd assume the former, but she's known my real name for, jeez, probably close to a year anyway--she'll tell it to other people all the time as in "my mommy's name is Cyd". I'm not even sure if a child her age is capable of real intentional smirking, but the combination of self and Mr. C would be pretty likely to produce one if it's possible.
This seems to have coincided with some kind of mental/emotional growth spurt that also included shouting at us in rage (YOU DON'T HELP ME, I DON'T WANT YOU!!!!) if we overstep her now-revised boundaries...and some cool new skills to go along with that, including wanting to wear panties to daycare--which, yay. But if we see her exhibiting need-to-go-potty signs and suggest it, more shouting. Mr. C and I are having a bit of an argument about whether the yelling is ever OK--the other day on a playground a bigger kid tried to shove her off a ladder with his foot and she shouted "DON'T YOU KICK ME" which we were happy to see. I don't know how to let her know that that's great assertiveness but yelling at mommy and daddy (if she's calling us that!) isn't respectful. ...and we're not yellers at all (like maybe 5 incidents of raised voices in 11 years together), so I don't know where it's coming from in the first place. And I don't know how much it's all related to the potty training, which she definitely seems to have strong emotions around, and which therefore we've mostly soft-pedaled so far.
I guess I must sound incoherent--I'm kind of confused. Is all this the very beginning of "I hate you" and "DUH mother" and way early rebellion, or just a little harmless toddler smartassery and understandable emotional effects of growth?
Any thoughts appreciated!"
Oy. It's amazing how much earlier they start exhibiting this behavior than you think they will. I remember being stunned to hear "If you slam that door one more time I'm taking it off its hinges and you won't have a door!" come out of my mouth when my son was barely 4.
It sounds like your daughter is very advanced, and is showing a lot of the typical three-year-old behavior. On an intergenerational email list I belong to, there was just a long thread about three-year-olds getting upset about absolutely everything, including things they'd just asked you to do, and making the rudest, most hurtful comments and demands. Everyone had horror stories to tell, whether their child was 3 or 13 or 40! Apparently the behavior passes, but the scars to the parents don't ever disappear completely...
I appear to have blanked this phase out, my own self. Either that or I never figured out what to do about it. I think her using your name all the time is probably similar to the potty language (aka "toilet talk" or "bathroom talk") phase, in that she's really just doing it to get a rise out of you. If you remember the potty language post, consensus was that there are a few different ways to handle it--ignoring it, confining it to certain physical areas, or doing it yourself so much that it becomes uncool--and it's a crapshoot about which one will work for your kid. I think if it were me, I'd just ignore it when she calls you by your name. It's up to you whether that means ignoring her request entirely ("Oh, I didn't know you meant me since my name is Mommy.") or just ignoring the fact that she used your given name instead of Mommy.
I think the yelling at you is awful, and you definitely need to let her know that it's not acceptable behavior. I think she's going to continue to yell at kids who try to hurt her anyway, so you probably don't need to reinforce that (them leaving her alone when she yells will be reinforcement anough, and eventually she'll be able to get her message across just by saying it instead of yelling it anyway). Instead, you should just repeat that people don't yell in your house, but if she can say it respectfully you'll listen to her request. And then don't respond to what she actually says when she's yelling. It may take a while (like it does when the problem is whining, not yelling), but if she never gets a response to what she yells she'll eventually learn just to say it in a normal voice.
I know somebody who's living this right now has better tips than I do. As I said, I think I blocked this phase out. You have my sympathies, and I hope your own memory is as merciful as mine is and in two years you don't even remember this phase.
Any other solvent-based ink can help lift it. Check Parenthacks.com, there's a hack there for removing permanent ink (sharpie-type) from other stuff that involves that approach. Not sure if it works for fabrics, but worth a try (you just have to wash it out while the solvent is still there - once the solvent is gone, you're stuck again).
I'd also tend to try something like Goof-Off, which is basically a really nasty solvent. Stinks like crazy, but works on a lot of things. (And if it fails, the jeans were toast anyway, right?)
Posted by: hedra | January 10, 2007 at 09:11 AM
Alcohol removes sharpie from glass-maybe try isopropyl (rubbing)alcohol.
Posted by: Strugi | January 10, 2007 at 09:27 AM
Okay, now for the 3-year-old thing.
If I recall correctly (and I'm headed toward this age, so I'd BETTER remember soon!), this age is about power and autonomy (where two is about separateness and individuality). Two is 'Me do it!/Mine!' and 3 expands on the theme to the 'You're not the boss of ME!' stage.
To which I reply, well, you probably guessed it, Safe, Respectful, Kind.
They can be the boss of themselves, if they stay within that framework.
So, the case in point:
Mommy is a title, not a name. It is a loving, intimate, affectionate title, but still a title. She has a preference for using your name right now. You have a preference for being called by your title. This doesn't violate any safety issues. It might have a respect issue involved (especially in the tone/smirk), and definitely a kindness issue (it would be kind of her to use Mommy, since you have a preference for it). However, flip around, it is kind to let her use your name, since SHE prefers to do that. Impasse. Which means manage the delivery, not the title/name choice. Explain how you feel, focus on how she feels, and see what happens.
The other thing that I find *really* useful for the 'YES! NO! I said YES! NO!' thing is to really stick with the moment, and your feelings (which likely are the same as theirs). Confused? Powerless? Frustrated? Exasperated? Agitated? Infuriated? Check! That's mom and dad, and that's them, too.
My 5 year old still slips back into that part of the stage (he hit it early, and perhaps due to the health issues blocking some of his normal progress, is still just working out of it completely now). We still get this:
Me: What do you want for breakfast?
Him: Toast. Cinnamon toast.
Me (handing him toast): Here you go!
Him: NO! NO! I don't WANT TOAST! I want CEREAL!
Me: Uh... you said toast. Cinnamon toast.
Him: (SCREAMING) NO I DIDN'T I SAID CEREAL! NO NO NO, YOU TAKE THAT BACK *RIGHT NOW*!
At which point I have two 'autopilot' choices. I can get stubborn and inflexible, insist that he eat the damn toast and that I'm not making him anything else, that's what he ASKED for (more screaming to ensue from that, plus wailing and possible later me changing tacks to the other autopilot line)... Or I can roll over, apologize, take away the toast, provide cereal, and get an ungrateful glower in return.
Um.
Or, I can skip autopilot, take a deep breath, let both of those scenarios run in my head (power struggle A, everyone loses, powerstruggle B, he appears to win, but then everyone loses later when we revisit the situation because it wasn't resolved), and then stick with stepping back, observing, listening, staying in the moment, not getting caught up in the implications for the future (which just make me more cranky and inflexible-feeling), and if it seems necessary, doing some collaborative problem-solving...
Which, when I do remember to do it (not always, unfortunately), looks like this:
Me: Wow, you're angry. You are absolutely certain you said cereal. I thought I heard you say toast. You seem really frustrated that I didn't seem to hear what you know you said. Your mouth is all set for cereal, and here I am, with toast.
Him: THAT's RIGHT! I'm ANGRY AT YOU, MOMMY!
Me: I hear ya. I'd be angry if I felt people weren't listening, too.
Him: (forcefully) Yeah.
Me: (pause to consider and leave some air gap in the conversation, proceed with a 'certain/positive' tone) So, what shall we do about this? I bet we can solve this problem together.
Him: Well. I wanted cereal. (just a hint of gripe left in voice)
Me: I know. I hear that, now.
Him: Toast is good, too.
Me: Yep. (Not going ANY further into that. Despite the desperate urge to apply sarcasm.)
Him: I'll take the toast. Can I have cereal, too?
Me: Sure.
Him: Thanks, Mommy! This toast is GOOD! (you'd think that part was my imagination making the picture look extra good, but that actually happens more often than I'd expect, and it sounds like some child psych author wrote it as an example! LOL!)
Phew! Staying with the moment, just getting my own feelings out of the mix, listening, validating the feelings, NOT putting any of my angst, frustration, irritation, confusion, dismay, etc, etc., etc into it as I respond, and we both end up feeling better. I know that when I do that, I feel appreciated (plus giving me fodder for mental back-patting, LOL!), he feels heard, and I don't tend to get backlash from the incident later. It is done, done, done. Really done. Released.
I pulled this approach from a variety of sources, listed below.
Some hints for this approach, from experience:
1) Never join phrases that have to do with them to ones that have to do with you. So, no 'I hear you wanted to go outside, and you're really frustrated; BUT, I ...' Leave a nice big air gap between one and the other, and use no grammatical links - no But, However, Still...
2) If you MUST bring your needs into the conversation, do so with an intention of solving the problem. 'I hear you are frustrated. (pause) I am frustrated, too. (sigh) This is a problem. You want to call me Cyd. I feel most loved when you call me Mommy. (note, no 'But' between those) How can we make sure YOU get what you need, and I get what I need? Huh. Any ideas?'
3) You don't have to change reality to give them power. They may ask to be autocrats, but being autocrats can be scary for them, making matters worse down the line. Power has to do with their action causing you to stop and pay attention, not stop and fix everything. REALLY pay attention. Listen, HEAR, reflect, validate, make-real, make-important, make time.
3) Problem-solving includes your problems. If you set the problem up as 'you want me to do this and I don't want to', that's more a battle of wills, not a problem that can be solved. One of the tips from Parenthacks.com is to put you and your child on the same side of the line, and the problem on the other. Then you're a team, solving the problem together. I hadn't visualized it that way, but it works. I have to find my actual problem, both feelings ('I feel unappreciated and bossed around') and needs ('I need to get everyone ready for school, and there are others who haven't had their breakfast yet - I need to make their breakfast and we have limited time to do it.'). My kids will come up with good solutions if I give them the whole problem (mine included), and we work together to solve it. Even at this age. Really.
4) Talk less, listen more at this age. At 2, we're talking talking talking, because they have few words, and we are teaching them. At 3 (and pre-3), think 'I'm not teaching, they're just LEARNING'. Listen, let them walk themselves to the conclusion, let them try it out fully, give them access, opportunity, options. And when you're tempted to tell tell tell, clamp the lips and ask them to tell you, instead. What are the rules? What do you need? Why is this important? Get in the habit of asking, of setting up principles and getting them to figure out if something fits (Safe, Respectful, Kind again). This is the age where if I listen, their answers are really amazing, often insightful, helpful, generous, kind. If I talk too much, talk over them, or talk for MY needs, it only brings out the worst in them.
Hope that helps, some.
Favorite resources for this age:
Positive Discipline for Preschoolers - there's a section in there on power struggles by type of power demanded. Fascinating (and I need to read it again, because my twins have different patterns of demand than my older two did).
How to Talk so Kids Will Listen, and Listen so Kids Will Talk (I think that's the title) - lots of coaching in the how to listen, validate, and empathize, plus how to get THEM to solve the problem (which is part of the power - they'll reject your solution simply because it was you saying it, when they could have said it, needed to say it, needed to prove they could come up with it on their own).
Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves - very clear, very repetitive hammering home of the approach. A bit heavy-handed on the doom and gloom if you fail to handle things this way (by the second chapter I was tired of hearing that children who don't get their needs met this way are at risk of eating disorders, drug abuse, jail time, mental breakdowns, depression, suicide, cannibalism, growing their hair long, becoming musicians, etc., etc., etc. Okay, just kidding on half of those.). Early on, I thought she meant that I had to bend over backwards for everything (hang in there until the info on not changing reality due to temper tantrums!). Oh, and a not-too-subtle repeat on the 'you know, if you just co-slept...' ;) If you have multiples or a larger family, the early chapters may also make you want to toss it out the window a few times in disgust... but keep with it, it does get there. (I must have thought 'you sure don't deal with large families much, do you?' a dozen times... despite that, I can use the approach pretty easily even with four kids - I figure that ANY use of it is better than none, and it does work exactly as stated with my kids. Shockingly well!)
I think that's my best offering. That, and remembering that this is all age-appropriate, and even if you mess up, they'll stop acting *just* like this (and start acting in some other way that boggles your mind) in a year or two. Or three or so, in our case. And then expect the repeat run when they are 14, I think...
Posted by: hedra | January 10, 2007 at 10:13 AM
I have had some success with soaking the ink stain in milk. Alcohol also helps. I got sharpie out of a new pair of khakis by alternating the alcohol and soaking in milk.
When you soak it milk, leave it awhile-- overnight, even. Its pretty cool-- if its working, the milk turns color!
Posted by: laura | January 10, 2007 at 10:20 AM
Oh, forgot 'The Explosive Child' (for the collaborative problem-solving approach). This book is for kids with developmental disabilities, but IMHO, any 3-year-old qualifies. They don't know all the words, they aren't able to manage their bodies well yet, etc. That's not that different from having a developmental delay, sensory issues, ADHD, etc. While a normal kid doesn't need the full 'basket A' approach (or the line can be more reasonable from the parent's perspective), starting there if you've already established a pattern of parental refusal to comply with child's demands (utterly) may help re-establish a trust that parents are there to help you get what you want/need out of life. (The 2-year-old year seems like a setup for this - a lot of 'no, sorry' rather than 'yes, of course!'...)
Posted by: hedra | January 10, 2007 at 10:21 AM
Oy, re-read, clarify.
When I said what they feel is what you feel, that's to help identify what feelings to reflect to them.
Cause trust me, when I hear 'you're wrong, I didn't ask for this!' screamed at the top of his lungs, I definitely feel ANGRY back. And his reaction is targeted straight toward getting my feelings in line with his, though he isn't aware of doing that. I also feel frustrated, disappointed, misunderstood, and powerless. Just like he felt when he discovered that despite being sure he asked for one thing, what was heard was something else.
(I remember when I really understood that sometimes my mouth would say something that I didn't think it had said. What a shock! Now, at least I can explain that with the 'well, sometimes I say Gabe when I mean Brendan, and I really thought I said Gabe, and I meant Gabe, and I was thinking about Gabe, but everyone else heard me say Brendan, so I guess I really did say Brendan!')
Posted by: hedra | January 10, 2007 at 10:27 AM
I think there are a lot of things that we as parents get hung up about, when it may be better to let it go. Especially when there seems tobe some intent to GET a reaction out of you, calling you by your name should be ignored completely. I don't think you should ignore the request, just ignore the use of your name. It will get old, when you aren't reacting to it. It's the same as when they respond with "I hate you!". You KNOW they don't hate you, but that sure gets a reaction, doesn't it? The yelling, that needs to stop, but it may involve ignoring too! When they yell, tell them you can't hear them, listen to them, or respond to them unless they stop yelling and speak to you properly. Repeat, then leave the room. Eventually the yelling will get old too, and there will be something else to obsess about LOL!
Posted by: Amy | January 10, 2007 at 10:32 AM
I know that sharpie will wipe off with pure ispropyl alchol, as we use both in the lab I work in. What I'm not sure about is if the IPA will harm the dyes in clothing. I think you can buy IPA at the drugstore too.
Posted by: Mykal | January 10, 2007 at 10:38 AM
In my opinion, this is the beginning of a nasty power struggle with your little one. She's obviously very bright and is using things that get a reaction to get a rise out of you.
Check the other areas of your time with her... is she getting as much attention as usual? Is there something in life that has disrupted her normal routine?
Second, I would flat out ignore any request that she makes while using your name instead of "Mommy." Remind her gently that you are to be called "Mommy" because for a little girl to call her mom by her first name isn't nice or respectful. (You have to find language to fit what your kid can understand there).
I totally agree with Amy, too... ignore the yelling, or speak to them softly, saying, "I can't hear you when you're yelling." and then leave the room.
Standing your ground will probably result in a few seriously nasty days, but the end result will be a happier mom and happier kid. Kids need boundries to feel safe, and she's testing hers. Shower her with love and attention as often as possible, but I'd suggest not tolerating those behaviours at all.
Good luck!
Remember, she'll grow up. And then she'll be a teenager. Ok, that's scarier than being a near 3 year old.
Posted by: jen | January 10, 2007 at 10:50 AM
Sharpie on the jeans? My solution -- take said sharpie and draw lovely designs all over the jeans -- ya know, so it looks like it was planned!
(Other than that, I've got nothin' -- there's a reason it's called permanent! Anything I've tried that removed the ink also took the fabric dye with it.)
Posted by: Kathy B | January 10, 2007 at 11:32 AM
This is just a suggestion on the Sharpie-jeans thing: Biz(z?), which you can get at stores or Target/Walmart, has done fantastic things for getting out impossible stains on our clothes. It's a powder and doesn't contain bleach, so I soak things in water and Biz(z) for hours and hours (my sister-in-law even does it for a day or two!), and the stains come out. I've never had to deal with a Sharpie stain, but maybe it's worth a try since it definitely won't hurt the fabric...good luck!
Posted by: Emily | January 10, 2007 at 11:54 AM
For the mummy name thing I suppose she's still a little young to make it playful (not teasing) by coming up with increasingly bizarre names for her (not rude ones) and just leave it to her to figure out after that? That'd be my approach with a slightly older child - play it out, rather than get into a power struggle. In a few years it'll be "Moooooooother!" anyway right? :)
For the yelling that's always been one of my hot buttons (not as a mum but aunt, TA, etc.) The best approach in a group setting for me has been the "I can't hear you if you're yelling at me" approach followed by completely ignoring anything said in that tone. Works for whining too. I don't know if it works as a parent yet. :)
Posted by: Shandra | January 10, 2007 at 12:19 PM
The "calling by name" thing happens pretty often in extended families - or maybe it's just my extended family. For example (and this is not unique), one boy started calling his parents by name, and his grandparents "Mom" and "Dad", because that's what he heard. He wasn't confused about who his parents were - he uses "mom" and "dad" appropriately - but he would rather use the names everyone else was using. Whenever people tried correcting him (his parents, grandparents, rest of us), he would laugh like it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard, and go back to doing it again.
Our family has dealt with this recurring situation in a variety of ways. One set of parents (loud yellers) yelled at their son every time he did this, until he just got tired of getting yelled at. Another would ignore their daughter and say, "Is someone calling me? It can't be my daughter because she calls me mommy." It took a while, but the kid stopped. And another just gritted their teeth and rode it out. The little boy called his parents by name till he was about 3-and-a-half years old, or so. He did this starting from when he was about 2.
We've stopped worrying about it as a general rule. It happens often enough.
This may or may not be unrelated, but because we are also a dual-language extended family, each kid seems to go through the stage of wanting to say Mommy and Daddy instead of Ammu and Abbu. We pretty much treat this the same as the names - and so far, by the time the kids are ready for kindergarten, everything has resolved itself.
Posted by: Fahmi | January 10, 2007 at 12:31 PM
Wow, thanks so much for posting my question, Moxie!! And thanks everyone for your thoughts--Hedra, you rock as usual, I really appreciate the detail--your toast conversation is one I could almost imagine having with Mouse, whose language has really increased startlingly in the last month. I think I have been viewing this through a 2-year-old lens (and she's been an easy 2-year-old) so the sudden change in the last couple weeks, coupled with the ineffectiveness of what I was used to doing, was a shock.
Nothing changed in the family, but something definitely changed in her--she's suddenly more capable in a bunch of areas--gets how puzzles work on a conceptual level, started using real multi-clause sentences with very proper grammar ("daddy and I went to school on the train but the doors were broken so the driver had to get out and fix them"), and like I said, the potty thing. I do think that's a real big deal to her and I'm trying to be as supportive and helpful as possible, viewing us as partners. Though the latest leap of logic--she adores her panties and has figured out that if she wets them she gets a fresh pair...so last night she twice informed me that she was going to pee in her panties and get a new pair, then totally squeezed out a few drops and said "now they're wet". So that was kind of hilarious and at least we know her physical control is pretty well developed...Looks like we need to help her understand (after years of wearing diapers and getting a new one after you pee) that the game is different...and reward for keeping panties dry needs to be cooler than a fresh pair.
And I'll work on letting her learn rather than teaching, and listening with the assumption that she can talk about the actual issue. The "I can't understand you" thing definitely worked for whining, so I'm going to try that for the yelling.
thank you, thank you, everybody!!!
Posted by: Charisse | January 10, 2007 at 01:10 PM
Okay, not to scare the bejeezes out of you, but my 4.5 yr old daughter STILL behaves this way. She'll request waffles for breakfast and then sob that I didn't make her pancakes. She screams at me when she's frustrated. And, she's learned how to use the word "love" in a variety of manipulative scenarios. As in, "I love you so much" when she wants attention, and "I love daddy more than you" when I'm reprimanding her. Chalk some of this up to the fact that her father and I divorced just about a year and a half ago and she feels a lack of control in her life. Other bits come from the fact that I was a pretty lenient parent when it came to allowing both my kids to express their emotions as toddlers without trying to stifle them. But I'm learning as I go and can see the pitfalls of my earlier mistakes.
If she clearly asked for waffles, waffles it is. Though I like Hedra's suggested tactics (as usual), I don't like to be manipulated and that is exactly what she's doing by changing her requests on me. She likes the feeling of having her whims met. I don't mind meeting the whims of an impromptu tea party or beauty shop session, but I refuse to play her little games at 6:30 am when we all need to get out the door.
As for the yelling, I've said here before that I'm a yeller and respect their urge to do so. I've set up a system so that I warn them when I'm feeling frustrated enough to yell and expect them to do the same. Thus, it would be hypocritical to *refuse* to allow them to yell at me in frustration. What I do try to do is to control the tone in which they yell and then address the frustration itself. Yelling "I hate you because you won't bring me a snack" in a mean tone is unacceptable. But yelling "I'm hungry and you said I can't have a snack so close to dinner" is more acceptable. At least this gets us to the root of the frustration and I can deal with the issue at hand.
Of course, if I weren't a yeller myself, I doubt I'd tolerate the yelling. But I'm an equal opportunity parent. If I can do it to you, you can do it to me. (Thus the no spanking policy... I don't really want to be spanked either).
Posted by: Amy | January 10, 2007 at 02:45 PM
With the changing the mind thing, esp. around food, I always double-check now. "I want cinnamon toast!" "You want cinnamon toast?" "yeah!" "Okay. I'm going to make cinnamon toast."
Or the white shirt, or the blue socks, or whatever.
Posted by: liz | January 10, 2007 at 03:06 PM
Amy, half the fun of my approach with my over-5 year old is knowing that he CAN'T manipulate me, now. I can just observe and validate, observe and validate, observe and validate. A touch of empower (you are able to get your own food, are you not?), and there's no making me jump through any hoops. If we work out a deal nicely, when I have time/energy to comply, that's fine. But that doesn't always happen - sometimes, no time, no energy, another solution must be found. And sometimes, the solution is him being angry that he can't have what he wants, and me being very clear how angry he is, and him knowing I understand. And that's ALL. Rather a lot of the time, what he'd rather have isn't possible, or is possible but violates sanity or one of the three rules (No, I'm not going to go out and buy you a toy just because you want one like your brother has, and he isn't interested in sharing right now. Yes, that makes you angry and sad. No, I'm not fixing it for you. ... No, I'm not going to allow you to lasso your sister and tie her up. That's not safe, respectful, OR kind. I hear that you are disappointed. I hear that you think that would be fun. I hear that you wish the rules were different. The rules remain.)
The manipulation things really irks me, but I find that my personal autopilot reaction to that isn't really helpful, either. I may feel better in a 'ha, so THERE!' kind of way, but until the problem is solved, it just comes back again. Granted, we're also talking different kids, and I know my niece is vastly different from my sons... she was queen manipulator (at least in attempt, though nobody EVER gave into that, she still seemed to have to try!). So definitely, your mileage may vary!
Posted by: hedra | January 10, 2007 at 03:19 PM
Sharpie is also soluble in ethanol. Cheap vodka works well for removing it, and for sure won't do anything to the jeans.
Posted by: JF | January 10, 2007 at 06:03 PM
I always have luck with hairspray for getting ink out, the cheaper the better (think Aqua Net).
I also have a 2 yr 9 month old daughter who is sassy when she acts out. Recently upon being placed in a time out she said "I don't care what you think!" which totally blew me away.
Re: the breakfast thing, if she asks for something, I do insist that she take at least 1 (or 2 or whatever) bite. If she would like to politely ask for something else too, that is fine with me. But if you ask me for toast, the consequence is you must at least TRY the toast.
Sometimes I like the observe/validate tactic, but sometimes to me it also gives the impression that it was OK to be so smart-assy in the first place, which I DON'T care for.
Not a ton of helpful pointers here, but I do know how you feel! It is amazing how an almost-three year old can act like a 13 year old sometimes.
Posted by: Carla Hinkle | January 10, 2007 at 07:46 PM
I agree with Moxie that this is a 3 thing and your daughter is advanced. I was there with my daughter a couple of months ago, at 3 yrs 2-3 months. Oh, the sassiness! She completely figured out how to push my buttons, which is what I think your child is doing with you and the first name thing. For us the worst has passed, and what got us through was patience, patience, patience - realizing that the button-pushing was deliberate helped (oddly) to ignore it. I think there's a big social development going on at around 3 - certainly my daughter was starting to play with other kids in a completely new way, and become aware of social distinctions (boys vs girls, and ye gads, princesses.) With this social development comes the realization that they can manipulate. And also, I think, social anxiety and melodrama. It can really be like having an early teen around sometimes (my daughter said to my husband, "My mom doesn't understand me!")
I wonder if the sassiness and drama is more a girl thing than a boy thing? I haven't found my friends who have sons to be dealing with it to the same degree. I have heard 3 year old girls (at a birthday party when my child was smaller) saying things like, "Well, I like you better than X..." It was really like middle school!
Posted by: flea | January 10, 2007 at 08:07 PM
I love hedra. I actually teared up when I read her post. I am not so good with the observe/validate routine. I feel kind of dorky saying "I hear you feel angry…" and maybe that comes across to my 3 yo daughter. I never seem to know what to say next, I guess. I'm going to go back and study hedra's post. Not being so good at recognizing or dealing appropriately with my own emotions, I'm at a bit of a loss helping Phoebe with hers.
Posted by: Maria | January 10, 2007 at 09:57 PM
My daughter was hard to understand and not too verbal yet in this window, 2.5 - 3.5. So she wasn't up to insults. Lots of crying. But she did also think our first names were fascinating. It started with her Grandma, who became Grandma Bonnie. We added Grandpa Cliff. And Papa Rob and Momma Sarah. At 5, she doesn't use the double name too often for us, but she does use it for her grandparents, which has turned out to be great. We also weren't dealing with snark or smirking, but perhaps a Mommy Cyd could be suggested. If I remember, all four grown-ups (my parents and us) used the double names for a few weeks at least, to reinforce that I wasn't just Sarah and my husband wasn't just Rob.
Posted by: Sarah | January 11, 2007 at 07:24 AM
When Lauren was 3, she insisted on calling me "Mother" which really grated on my last nerve.
I said, "Lauren, I don't like being called 'Mother'. I would really prefer it if you called me 'Mom' or 'Mommy'."
"Alright," she said.
So, the next time she called me 'Mother', I reminded her, "It's not nice to call someone by a name they don't like to be called."
The subsequent time she did it, I asked her how she would feel if someone called her by a name she didn't like.
I don't know WHY, but this seemed to turn the corner on that behavior. From then on, she corrected herself without a reminder and then stopped altogether.
Posted by: Heather AKA Epiphany Alone | January 11, 2007 at 08:56 AM
Sooo... coming back around again. I was watching myself do the observe and validate thing, and how I handled exactly what Carla brought up, which is expressing MY feelings about the tone, and handling the rules (respectful in this case).
What I'm seeing myself do is that I observe and validate my own feelings, either to myself or out loud if that seems helpful (sometimes they don't understand why I'm reacting that way!). But mostly, I wait until the situation is resolved before I try to teach anything. That's from a seminar on Montessori education I took at my oldest son's school. They said 'do you cope well with being lectured or taught anything when you're emotionally distraught? No? Neither do kids. WAIT. Handle the education when they're not expressing/releasing an emotion.' Talk about it later. I get stuck in thinking that kids are like cats, that if you separate the 'education' from the 'mishap', they won't get it. But this isn't about immediate reward or punishment, this is about training. And you can't train a cat when it is upset, either! (Okay, they're not real trainable anyway, LOL! But I hope the point still makes sense...)
I highly recommend that book (the Raising Our Children/Ourselves one). Because the steps are so concrete, and the situations she describes so varied, it makes it much more clear HOW, not just what/why, to adapt. And my purpose is not just to get them to behave RIGHT NOW, but for them to understand how to behave over time, later, as adults. Getting immediate compliance is sometimes (often!) at odds with my greater goal, which is that they become compassionate, responsible, kind, respectful, safe adults. (Though I soooooo sooooo sooooo just want them to get up, get dressed, pay attention, focus, do what they're asked to do, do what they're responsible for, and do it all on time, under budget, and with a pleasant demeanor! NOW. LOL!)
Posted by: hedra | January 11, 2007 at 09:04 AM
I do the observe/validate think with my son better than with my daughter. Yes, boys and girls are different. My son is NEVER sassy. Whiny, yes. Sarcastic, no. Thus, we he gets frustrated, yells, otherwise misbehaves, there is usually a concrete reason and it's easy to say, "I can see you're upset because I won't let you watch more TV. That would make me angry too..." But it doesn't work as well with my daughter. I'm not sure if it's that she's not old enough yet (she's the sassy 4.5 yr old described above... older brother is almost 7) or if it's because she's a girl or if she's having more control issues than her brother had at this age b/c of the divorce/life changes she's had.
It's also possible, too, with my daughter that she hit this verbal manipulation stage just as the divorce occurred and found her words to be a more powerful force in her life than actions or other ways of getting what a 3 yr old (at the time) wants. While the divorce was amicable--so there was no "I hate your daddy, and I want you to hate him too"--she clearly picked up on my desire to make her comfortable and to meet her needs myself when she asked for him. Nowadays, the "I want my daddy" rarely gets the compassionate response it used to b/c she uses it so frequently when she's reprimanded that she's upped the ante by tying her love for me into the manipulation. My son NEVER ties his love for me or his father into his manipulation. He might tell me he doesn't like me when I turn off the TV, but that's anger and it's never tied into how much he does like his father. My son will also quickly give me a hug after saying it and remind me that he does indeed love me. My daughter NEVER recants.
All of this is by way of saying, yes, I think boys and girls are different. But circumstances and personalities can affect how chldren will behave as well.
And, Hedra, in my next life I want to grow up in your house.
Posted by: Amy | January 11, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Amy, you're making me dread 4 1/2 year old twin girls... Eek!
Talk to me again when mine are that age... Oy. Though one of them seems unlikely to go there, she's just way too forthright already. She did a quick run through manipulation at 18 months, as if to prove that she COULD, and then went back to just very strongly stating her opinion/need, and leaving it at that. Her sister... her sister is already doing end-runs around the exact text of my words. Shades of my sister biting the cake when told not to touch it...
Posted by: hedra | January 11, 2007 at 11:05 AM
While not being called by the name one prefers is hurtful and sometimes disrespectful, children do tend to do this. Personally, I wouldn't use the sam eresponse as I would for yelling or the like, because the behavior isn't harmful, and that feels too punitive. It really is about calling someone by the prefrred name or title and not being rude. Heather's comment is the one I like best, about this particular issue. Children hear other people address parents by proper names, so it is to them obviously acceptable, as opposed to addressing someone as a nasty word. The smirking is rude, but calling by an acceptabel name that is not the proper title in this case is a gray area, I think.
Maybe do as Heather suggests, focusing more on the feelings of the one being addressed than on the misbehavior of the one doing the addressing (because, again, it's not yelling or whining or nasty-word calling). It would be interesting to try to find out why she prefers to use the given name. Children might use mommy instead of mama because it feels more enderaing or dad instead of abba because it feels less different. If it's to be annoying, along with the smirk, then this isn't the case, but perhaps using the given name has somehow been modeled for her as a positive thing.
I think I would be hurt if my child addressed me differently whether in ordre to be annoying, less connected, closer, or less different. Still, I wouldn't wnat to force a child to call me something that for some reason made her really uncomfortable. She shoudl respect her mother, and, as Hetaher says, not call anyone by a disliked name, but I guess I think it shouldn't be treated a sa huge offense either, and shoudl be examined, to find out the reasoning and feelings.
And, to go to extremes, I wouldn't want to model for my child that she must call random adults however they instruct her. It's a puzzle, becaus einsisting on being called Mrs. Smith instead of Jane is proper, maybe Uncle John instead of just John as well, but what if the creepy neighbor wants to be called Uncle Jack instead of Mr. Jones?
If all else fails, start addressing her as "Daughter."
Posted by: nobody | January 15, 2007 at 01:01 AM