Kathy, whose kids are all older and out of the house, writes:
"The concept of playgroups did not exist when my daughter was young. She either went to somebody's house to play (referred to these days as a "play date" I believe) or we just kicked her out to play with the other kids in the neighborhood (we usually let her back in at night LOL.)
Fast forward 20+ years. Let me set the scene: I live in a townhouse. They are lined up in rows – with a sidewalk leading from the main walkway up to the front door of each unit. There is a patch of grass between each sidewalk – great place for kids to play. Each townhome has its own sidewalk and porch.
I came home from work yesterday and noticed that my next door neighbor had a couple of extra kids outside with her. Looked like a fun time for her two-year old. (Actually I think he's under the age of 2 and she has a newborn, and a 7-year old, so it was nice to see him getting his special attention.) I went inside, upstairs and changed, etc. Came downstairs and opened the front door – it was a nice evening and I wanted to let in some of the cool air.
The small gathering of children had now grown to a full-fledged play group; kids around age 2 – cute kids one and all, having a great time with water toys, balls, chalk, etc.
I love children, and enjoy seeing them have fun, but when I opened the door, there were several of the Moms ON MY FRONT PORCH – this is not a shared porch – it only goes into my home. All along the walkway leading up to my house were more moms – ready to leap at a moment's notice to rescue their little one if necessary (actually, most of them looked like vultures.) I was uncomfortable with having strangers on my porch; my door was open; it felt like an invasion of my privacy. I didn't quite know how to handle the situation, but I was leaving soon anyway, so – I decided not to let it bother me.
So -- now I am ready to leave. As I walked out, a couple moms had to move just so I could open my screen door. As I started to walk down the sidewalk, I would have expected the moms to move so I could leave – but they just stood there. I politely said "excuse me" as I attempted to navigate my way to the main walk. One of the moms gave me the DIRTIEST LOOK. How DARE I expect her to move off of her spot – I guess she figured I should walk around her – she wasn't about to give up the space she had staked for herself!
These are new neighbors -- they've only lived next to me for a few months, and I don't know them at all except to smile and say hi. I really didn't know how to handle the situation. I guess the best thing will be when I see the mom that lives there just to mention that I was uncomfortable with people on my porch. I don't know, I am rather shy and don't like to make waves - so I'll probably keep my mouth shut and deal with it.
This is not really a question -- I don't quite know why I'm writing you. I guess maybe I hope you could just give a word to your readers to be polite when attending a playgroup where there are shared spaces!
I've reread and revised this email several times -- I don't want you to get the idea that I am against play groups in the neighborhood. Quite the contrary, I encourage all social interaction with small children. The more varied the better."
Whoa. I have absolutely no idea what to say about this, because I can't even imagine this situation. To me this isn't even in the category of etiquette. It seems beyond rude to deliberately antagonistic on the part of the playgroup moms.
I mean, I can understand overflowing into a neighbor's front yard, but onto her porch? Only if I knew for sure that the person wasn't home (and even then I'd feel guilty about it). And then being rude about letting the property owner walk on her own property? I'm stunned. It seems stupid and deliberately incendiary.
Is there any chance this is a regional thing? I live in New York City, where the concepts of outdoor space and personal property are very different from the rest of the country. (If it's outside, it's almost always public property.) Kathy lives in Southern California. Could the neighbors be from some other region where this is accepted practice?
What do you all think?
(And I do think that Kathy should let the neighbor know that she felt uncomfortable about the playgroup moms being on her actual porch. If the neighbor isn't responsive, she might have to go to a homeowners' association if they have one, but the first move should be to talk to the neighbor directly. An uncomfortable conversation, for sure. And how do you say to someone, "So, your friends are all rude jackasses, huh?" without offending? Yeesh.)
Oh, I would say this is definitely wrong. I would be sorely tempted to cover my steps in plants or garden gnomes or (Cacti?) --something so as it make it inhospitable.
(Hey, Moxie-- how funny would it be if she were to recreate that bloody horrific yard your husband found?!?! Hee. That gives me a giggle!)
Posted by: Meira | June 19, 2006 at 08:58 AM
Definitely speak with the neighbor, no matter how uncomfortable. Preface the real purpose of your chat with something to the effect of how you've started here, noting that playdates are a new thing, that your kids have grown, etc. This should let your neighbor know that you're not one of Those Wacky Childfree [TM Julia, I believe].
"It was great to see all the kids having such a good time on the lawn the other day, but it was a little difficult getting out of my house with so many preoccupied moms in the way!"
Posted by: wix | June 19, 2006 at 10:21 AM
The thing is, neighbours are forever - or at least potentially so - and its really hard to tell someone that they're friends are behaving badly so any way that you could stop the situation without talking about it would be great. I kind of like the plant idea actually. Or anything to demarcate (sp?) the space as private. I'm guessing that all the porches are sort of the same which gives people enough of an illusion of public ot justify the craziness. Maybe some combination of hanging plants and potted plants could create the perception of a wall - just enough so that no one could think that your porch was public. But most important don't let it get to where you're really mad - say something before that.
Good luck
Posted by: Cat | June 19, 2006 at 10:31 AM
Unfortunately there are rude and obnoxious people in this world and they reproduce. A neighbor “situation” can get icky fast! And the bigger problem is that you have to live next door to them for who knows how long!
I would wait to say anything to the mom who hosted the playgroup. She, like you, may have been appalled by her guests’ behavior. “Oh my gawd, they were everywhere! Like vultures! I felt so bad for the neighbor.” Maybe she is accustomed to having a larger yard, or didn’t know so many people would come and that they would act like vultures. (Love that image!) Maybe she just didn’t have the gumption to shoo the rude moms away from your porch. And, maybe she doesn’t have the grace to come over and apologize. But, while there is not an excuse for being rude, maybe she realized on her own that the large playgroup was NOT a good idea at her house. Maybe she learned a lesson.
Or, maybe not because she is obnoxious and rude too! If it happens a second time, let her know that this is a problem. If there are going to be that many people over, they need to meet at a park, where there are comfortable benches upon which to perch!
Posted by: holly | June 19, 2006 at 10:44 AM
I agree with Holly. See if it happens again. If it does, talk to the neighbor. If you do not, you will be tempted to hold a grudge against her, which hurts you more than it does her.
Posted by: Tabetha | June 19, 2006 at 01:38 PM
I'm from the West Coast and I would have to say that's rude, at least on the part of the moms who were sitting on her porch. I was taught that if it's not your property, you stay off it as much as possible unless you have permission or better yet, an invitation.
Posted by: Sarah | June 19, 2006 at 02:05 PM
Hi -- This is Kathy. Thanks for all your comments. They have made me think a bit more about the situation -- so here are some more comments. (Sorry about the length of the post -- I just can't help myself!)
After further thought,I think the play group are mostly from her old neighborhood where all the neighbors were moms and kids all about the same ages and all good friends. I would even imagine there was a "mi casa es su casa" attitude. They most likely didn't even think that there are now neighbors who are not a part of their group.
I will not say anything to my neighbor just yet; I'll wait and see if it happens again (but I won't let it fester into a grudge situation.) After all, with a group that large, how often can she be the host!! (LOL) She really is a nice gal (not an awful lot older than my daughter)-- and very concerned about making sure her children are not a bother. When they first moved in, her youngest (at the time) loved to crawl over and play on my porch and she was forever coming to get him and explain to him that "this is not your house, you have to leave the neighbors alone."
Also, someone brought up the fact of whether or not somebody was home at my place. Thinking about this -- although it isn't "right" to take over someone's porch, I guess if I wasn't home, I won't know and not be bothered! (If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a noise?)
Thanks for the suggestions regarding plants, etc to define the space. It really is already defined (one porch, one front door -- garden space between porches) but the suggestions made me think that I do need more plants, so a trip to Lowes is in my future. (Oh -- and the cactus idea -- priceless!)
So it now comes down to the rudeness of the moms who would not step aside to let me get out to my car; unfortunately, there is not much that can be done about outright rudeness and poor manners. So I'll just have to get over it!
Thanks, Moxie for putting this out to your group.
Posted by: Kathy B. | June 19, 2006 at 02:24 PM
My husband (southerner) and I (New Englander) were talking about this - we were both brought up to believe you don't go on anyone's porch without being invited (and you don't *ask*, you wait to be invited). Even yards are private, and you don't go into them without asking permission. The only times either of us have seen people sitting on others' porches regardless of permission is when we've been visiting in urban/housing projects. But even then, everyone is working with the same assumptions/information.
We can see how the privacy of your yard could be somewhat muddled by how the townhomes are set up, but the porch sounds clearly demarkated.
We also agreed that if we saw a bunch of moms vulturing around, and we were going out we'd offer the porch, but that's different than having it usurped (which would piss us both off).
Posted by: rachel | June 19, 2006 at 09:01 PM
i think they were being incredibly rude and invading your space. if that is regional, i would hate to live in that region! i would assume the one dirty look giver may just be a witch and hope the neighbor is better. maybe she just didn't know how to tell these rude women to get off her new neighbor's porch.
Posted by: kimblahg | June 19, 2006 at 09:29 PM
I agree with Holly and think from your reply that this situation is salvageable -- she gets the whole porch thing, and is probably better at giving direction to her son than to her mom friends. Hopefully this won't happen again, but if it does, you will be right to say something and Holly gave good direction on that.
FYI, I'm from the West Coast and this strikes me as strictly rude but unfortunately not inconceivable. I am always surprised at the libertied some parents take in the name of their children.
Posted by: bernalgirl | June 19, 2006 at 10:47 PM
I like Holly's approach too.
And maybe include something like "I wish I'd thought of playgroups when my kids were little!" so she knows you're not against the big group o' kids. Just the coven of rude mothers.
Posted by: liz | June 20, 2006 at 11:31 AM
I grew up in the Midwest, and have lived in California, New England, and now the South. I cannot think of a single place where it's acceptable for strangers to camp out on another stranger's house. Even in cities, those aren't strangers all over each other's front stoops and porches -- they are neighbors, and friends.
I am a little confused by the "separate porches" that are close enough for a small child to think it's okay to play on another one -- the porches at my MIL's are really WELL differentiated, I can't imagine my kids thinking it was okay to go to another one -- so MAYBE the other moms didn't understand?
If it happened again, I would say something polite. Maybe offer a few extra lawn chairs so her friends have someplace comfortable to sit on her own lawn. Good luck!
Posted by: Jody | June 20, 2006 at 02:06 PM
I know I'm way late on this one, but I was reading the archives and just had to comment. I've actually had this happen to my SIL while I was at her house. She (God love her) took a lawn chair and book outside, knowing full well she wouldn't be able to concentrate enough to read it, but for effect) and plopped herself down on her own porch for a little sit.
I think her words to the unbelievably offensive woman on her porch were, "Would you mind terribly if I just sneak in here to sit for a little bit?" It worked like a charm.
Posted by: Naomi | August 11, 2006 at 12:30 PM
I know I'm way late on this one, but I was reading the archives and just had to comment. I've actually had this happen to my SIL while I was at her house. She (God love her) took a lawn chair and book outside, knowing full well she wouldn't be able to concentrate enough to read it, but for effect) and plopped herself down on her own porch for a little sit.
I think her words to the unbelievably offensive woman on her porch were, "Would you mind terribly if I just sneak in here to sit for a little bit?" It worked like a charm.
Posted by: Naomi | August 11, 2006 at 12:33 PM
I just recently began looking for new blogs on the latest gardening plans. Many of my best tools were located by just blindly searching. Although this article was not quite exactly what I was searching for It has a few fine gardening related hints...
Posted by: Gardener | March 14, 2011 at 04:23 AM
Great Post! It's very nice to read this info from someone that actually knows what they are talking about.
Posted by: hoa management services | December 08, 2012 at 01:00 AM
Good article. I am dealing with a few of these issues as well..
Posted by: Melynda Ennett | February 03, 2013 at 07:53 PM
I want to to thank you for this excellent read!! I certainly loved every little bit of it. I have got you book marked to check out new things you post…
Posted by: Maya Schwark | February 04, 2013 at 05:14 AM
After I initially commented I seem to have clicked the -Notify me when new comments are added- checkbox and now every time a comment is added I recieve four emails with the exact same comment. Perhaps there is a means you can remove me from that service? Thanks!
Posted by: Jerry Gerchak | February 04, 2013 at 01:19 PM
Spot on with this write-up, I absolutely feel this web site needs a lot more attention. I’ll probably be back again to read more, thanks for the info!
Posted by: Echo Galka | February 05, 2013 at 05:09 AM