My Q, your A: someone else disciplining your child

Here's a new occasional feature: I'll bring up something that happened to me recently, and you tell me how you'd react to it.

A few days ago I was with the boys (4 and 1) at the playground. Also there were a couple of El C's (the 4-year-old's) friends with their moms or nannies. One nanny, S, always drops off and picks up at school, and she and the kids she cares for are often at the playground. So we've spent some time sitting together chatting while the kids play, and we're certainly friendly, although I wouldn't consider us actual friends. I think she's an excellent nanny, firm but loving, and she gives the kids enough freedom but is also on top of any potentially bad situations almost before they start happening.

At one point I was standing helping El P (the 1-year-old) cruise around a play structure and chatting to a friend at the same time. S walked over, holding onto El C's arm, and said, "He's not allowed into the sand anymore today. He just kicked sand in a little girl's face." And then she delivered El C to me and went back to supervise her kids. I asked El C what happened and he confirmed that he'd kicked sand ("because they wouldn't give me back my shovel, Mom!" I was hoping we'd be past this by now. Sigh.).

Edited to add: S's charge and El C both had to be at school in a little over an hour, so S and the kids and I all knew we had 45 minutes left at the playground, max.

Question #1: How would you feel about S coming over to tell you what happened?

#2: About removing your child from the situation?

#3: About telling him he couldn't go back into the sand that day?

Does it change or add anything if we factor in the facts that I'm a white US-born American (as are my kids) while S is an immigrant of color?

So think about your reaction. Here's mine:

I was happy she stopped El C and then stepped in swiftly and decisively to remove him from the sandbox and punish him by banning him for the rest of the day. I think it's convenient that that's exactly what I would have done, but even if it wasn't my first instinct I hope I'd have been OK with it.

I have in the past been very upset when someone else at the playground disciplined my child, but I think this was different because: 1) I know and respect S already--it wasn't just a stranger hopping in who I knew didn't know my child. 2) She wasn't at all hostile about it, to him or to me--I will never forget the time El C accidentally knocked over a smaller kid on the playground and the mother told him he was "a bad kid." Uh, no. 3) I knew the only reason I hadn't been there on top of it myself was because I was with the baby. I think often if we get upset about someone else disciplining our child it's because we actually feel defensive because we know we should have been there instead of talking to another parent or being otherwise distracted.

To me this episode felt like a validation of the idea that the community can help you raise your kids. But I'm wondering if you had the same reaction to hearing the story, if you would have felt differently, or if you have other insights into the situation. How do we negotiate others disciplining our kids (besides regular babysitters and others we assume will do it daily)?

Comments

[Slim]

Removing and reporting, fine.
Deciding the consequences, eh, not so happy about that, even if it turns out to be what I would have done.
In this particular situation, for example, I can imagine circumstances in which banning for the rest of the day might be overkill, depending on the child and how long we were going to be at the playground; some kids get the message after five minutes of deprivation, others need longer.
Granted, S knows you and your child, so she may be better able to guess what's appropriate in your eyes, but as a general rule, unless I've put you charge of my child temporarily, I'm fine with your stepping in but not with your taking over.
And in this case, race/class doesn't enter is. Well, even though it can't be excluded from anything.

[Cat, Galloping]

I agree with Slim: Reporting and removing, okay. Determining punishment, overstepping.

[Meira]

I agree with the first commentor-- removing & reporting, excellent. Deciding the consequences . . . well, I think her consequence was great, and I think it can sometimes be much more effective to have some other authority figure hand out a consequence--maybe so the kid sees "Hey, it's not just my mom's idiosyncracies-- this is an actual cultural law" (not that they would use that language, but you know what I mean. I think the part of me that would possibly get caught up is the part that might have been at the end of my rope that day and heavily depending on the sandbox to keep him entertained, and there fore feeling stressed that my pushed-to-the-limit mind would have to come up with another alternative. Lastly, I think I'd be embarrassed. I don't think you (or I) would rationally have anything to be embarrassed about, but I'd feel it.

On a side note, I once watched a kid (who's mom was feeding her baby) throw sand at another kid repeatedly until I realized she wasn't aware, so I went up to the kid, squatted down & looked into his eyes, held his hand gently and said "We don't throw sand at playgroup".
His mom gave me crap about it. She said that I should've told her. And I thought to myself later-- but if he were walking towards the train tracks, would you want me to stop him or tell you? So if your kid is getting hurt, I should stop it--but if someone else's is getting hurt, I should tell you? Right.

[Moxie]

Ah. I forgot to add that S's charge and El C both had to be at school in a little over an hour, so neither of us were staying at the playground for longer than another 45 minutes. I'll go add that to the original post.

Meira, I think the mom you mentioned might have been feeling defensive because she hadn't been on top of it herself. If someone in my playgroup was calm and gentle about stopping my kid from doing something I'd be thrilled.

[Lisa]

I agree with the other posters: reporting and removing was fine; banning was hinky. She could have just brought El C over to you, told you what happened, and let you take it from there. Or said, "I don't think he needs to be in the sandbox" not "He's not allowed in the sandbox." Is it HER sandbox?

(Can I SAY sandbox any more? Sandbox! Sandbox! Sandbox!)

I really don't think it matters at all that she's "of color," either. Why would it?

[Nancy]

Mine is a babysitter's perspective. One benefit to others disciplining another's kids is that those kids will be more likely to behave even when away from their parents, because anyone could be watching and they might step in to stop them. There's nothing worse than some little brat who insists he can do anything to anyone because his very own Mom or Dad hasn't put a stop to it.

I think too that telling him he couldn't go back in the sand was going too far, but the rest was great. I think it's a safer world for everyone when adults feel comfortable reminding kids who aren't behaving so well or being destructive that they are being watched and that bad behaviour won't be tolerated. Any parent who doesn't want anyone else interfering at all had darn well better supervise them every second of their lives to protect the rest of us!

[wix]

yeah, i think that reporting & removing was good, but i think a line was -=maybe=- crossed when she meted out specific punishment (though meira makes a good point about social rules sometimes being the same thing as mom's rules, and how that's good to see).

if i had been in S's shoes, i probably would have phrased my recommendation differently, something like, "Hey, it looks like El C may need to take a break from the sandbox, there was a squabble, such-and-such just happened."

my choice to make a suggestion rather than a statement is a reflection of how i was raised, and this may be the only time that it would even occur to me to take S's heritage into account. depending upon her culture of origin, what she's doing might not be perceived as overstepping a boundary, though it clearly is -here-, if the comments so far are any indication. some cultures are just more direct, and if i know that she's from one of those cultures, i can absolutely forgive an etiquette mis-step because i can see that she has everyone's best interest at heart, though her wording is a bit off from my cultural perspective (which is admittedly a regional one and looked upon as strange by many other folks in the nation).

i hope that made sense.

it makes a difference that you know each other, too, that you've seen her in action and know she's a decent caregiver. we have one set of friends here in town whose son is 1.5 mos older than CX. we get together often, and our parenting styles are so similar that if she were to ban CX from the sandbox, i wouldn't bat an eye. i trust her instincts.

[HollyRhea]

I love it. Even if you don't agree with the "punishment" she meted out, the child learns that he has to play by whatever rules of whatever place he's in. I know, Moxie, that you've suggested reading "Between Parent & Child", which I have. In that book, the good doctor suggests we tell the adults of the house we're visiting that they are free to tell the child when they're overstepping a boundary. Granted, the sandbox wasn't the lady's, but still...in real life, rules of acceptable behaviour change constantly depending on the environment. As do consequences of those rules. I think it was an excellent lesson for a four-year-old. Good one for me, too. I will not kick sand in Lauren's face anymore.

[Emmie]

I would've been very grateful for her intervention, maybe slightly less than thrilled about her deciding the concequences. However, I thought a lot about this, and decided that maybe we can't have it both ways. Currently, most people are erring on the side of caution. This means that a lot of the time we’re not looking out for each other’s kids at all, for fear of “interfering” and getting chewed out for it. How’s that working for us? I spend a lot of time chasing my mobile but pre-verbal twins around the playground, and boy, do I wish I lived in a culture where someone would say "I'll make sure he doesn't fall while you get his brother". All I get instead is pained sympathetic looks. I guess I’d much rather someone intervenes imperfectly than not at all. I want my kids to grow up thinking that while people may have somewhat different parenting styles and rules (a must if I want them to get along with and respect people of different cultural backgrounds!), most of them are looking out for them and wanting to hold them accountable to decent behavior. I might have my own feelings slightly hurt in your situation, but my kid would be fine, even better off! Thanks for the thought-provoking question – made me think.

[Amy]

My daughter's only 2 right now, so I haven't experienced this personally yet. When I first read the questions in Moxie's post, I stopped scrolling and thought about my answers before reading on. What *would* I do/feel? It turns out I agree with a lot of other commenters, namely that reporting and removing would be fine, setting and carrying out consequences would be odd-feeling (to me) but appropriate.

I would definitely have felt weird about S determining the consequences, but after I thought about it some more, I realized a couple of things. One, she witnessed the transgression and its severity and would, therefore, have a better vantage point on what punishment would be fair. Two, swiftly applied punishment will have greater effect (hopefully).

If a nearby adult (not my parent) punished me for a wrong action, I would think, "Wow, I'd better not do that again. Everybody thinks it's wrong." If the same adult witnessed my wrong action and asked me to leave so we could go report to my parent what I had done (so that the parent could apply a punishment), I would think, "Wow, I'd better not be seen doing that again."

It helps that Moxie is familiar with S. If it happened to me at my local playground, S would instead be a young Slavic woman whom I don't know. I would have felt weird, maybe put out, but after thinking this through here, I hope I'll react like Moxie did. I hope so because I do want others' help teaching my child how to be a good human in her community.

[SMIT]

This hasn't happened to me yet, because my daughter is only 6 months.
But my immediate reaction upon reading about it was that I would have appreciated her intervening and bringing the child back to me and explaining the situation...
But I would have preferred that she leave it up to ME to dole out the appropriate course of action as far as punnishment.

[Linda B]

Hmm, my immediate reaction upon reading your this was to be kind of offended, mainly because she took it upon herself to decide what El C's punishment would be. However, I understand that you might feel differently because you know her. Coming from a culture known to be blunt in nature, I also understand that it might be the nanny's natural manner to be so firm and unapologetic about taking charge of children.

This all being said, if it were my child and I knew S, I still would have preferred a more diplomatic approach to things. I would have definitely wanted her to remove my child from the situation butlet me handle the disciple and consequence. Or, maybe the nanny felt comfortable enough with you to take charge because she knew you wouldn't mind?

[meg]

Very happy about her removing him from the sandbox and bringing him over to me to tell me what happened. Not so happy about her deciding the punishment. I have delievered many a child to their parent/caregiver* due to them having done something wrong (hitting, etc.) For even my closest mommy friends, though, I wouldn't presume to decide what the punishment should be, unless they had left me "in charge".

That being said, though, I know a couple moms I would like to do this for! Because, really, their discipline is not effective (or simply does not exist!) For example, when A's son hit someone (a really common occurance), and I delivered him to her with the info, she sat him down, gave him some ice cream, and sent him back on his way to play a few minutes later. What the? What's the point of even bringing it to your attention, then? Maybe I should just step in and do it myself!

*Only a child I know. I would not "bring" a child I don't know anywhere. I would simply look for the adult that goes with that child, or remove my child from the situation.

[Amy]

That is 100% how I was raised so I would be fine with it. Growing up there were lots of kids on my block and we all played outside together. The rules were pretty much whichever adult was closest was free to intervene and discipline any of the kids. I never remember my mother seeming upset by it. I think there was a lot less pressure then to be constantly vigilant in the same way there is now though so she probably didn't feel the same amount of guilt that might lead her to get defensive about not being there to handle it herself. Same went for family gatherings with lots of adults and kids around. No physical punishment was ever used but I remember being scolded by an aunt or cousin in front of my mom or sent home or punished by a friend's parent and being told I wasn't allowed back out to play (I was the only girl so I was always bossing the boys around. I got sent home a lot.) All the adults respected the rules and punishments layed out by other adults. I guess we were lucky that everyone had sort of the same behavior expectations and parenting style though.

I think as long as the adult is a person you trust it helps kids to understand that rules and the consequences that go along with breaking them don't disappear just because mommy isn't watching. I think under the circumstances, the nanny telling him what the consequence of his actions were is perfectly acceptable. When I was a nanny briefly we all stepped in when needed with each others charges. Especially if someone had more than one kid to watch. But interestingly enough I never did that if a child's parent was around because I had seen too many nannies get dirty looks for doing the same thing. So consequently a lot of those kids got away with an awful lot when mom wasn't looking.

So long comment short...I would be grateful for the help.

[HollyRhea]

I've already commented on this one, but I just had a thought. I remember being about 7 or 8 and hearing the neighbor holla' to me that it was time to go inside since it was getting dark. I was mad at her for assuming she could dole out instruction to me. But if my Mom had contradicted the neighbor's instruction, I would have assumed that adults aside from my Mom weren't to be taken seriously. As it was, I learned to do what I was told by any adult. Maybe that's key...ensuring that the child learn to take instruction from all familiar adults seriously.

[liz]

If she were a stranger, I'd want removing and reporting only. But since you know her and such...I think it was appropriate.

I actually did something similar with my son's friend today. We were all at a school picnic and he started running off. I ran after him (I'm quicker than his mom...she's a bit out of shape) and caught him before he got to the grills. And I told him in no uncertain terms that he was NOT to run off without his mommy or me.

She was fine with it. I'd be fine with her doing the same for Muffin Man. It seriously does take a village.

[Jo in Utah]

It seems people have made some good comments on most of the situation, so I will address the race thing. As a person of the brown persuasion, (of the Native American type) I have noticed a large difference in the parenting styles between the Rez and where we live. On the Rez, there is a sense that the children belong to the entire community not just to their parents, so there are many people watching your child and sometimes disciplining them, and parents are usually embarrassed if their child has behaved poorly enough to elicit the attention of another adult. Native parents seem less possessive of their children and want them to have a sense of obligation to their community. My two cents on this? I think it is likely race played a part in how S chose to handle the situation.

[Lala]

I WISH more people acted like that Nanny! I have been known to take my son over to apologize to the mother of a boy he had just pummelled so he could see that it wasn't just me that thought it was wrong. Call me crazy but I'd like it if more people acted responsibly like S did and I wish society would let me act like HER.

[Emilin]

I probably would have had a defensive reaction, just because I'm like that. However, I would likely have chosen similar consequences to S's, had I seen my own child do that (hypothetically, of course, since she's 3 months old). I agree with the general thought here: reporting and removing is great, and had she chosen a different method of discipline, I might disagree with her having meted it out.

[karla]

i was totally fine with the removing and reporting too. yet, i do wonder if you would have been ok with the nanny deciding the consequences if it would not have been what you would have done anyway. for instance, what if the nanny said, "he was throwing sand, he needs a spanking." or ".....he needs to be grounded from dinner." i personally (because i have 2-year olds) would not punish by taking the kid out of the sandbox for the entire time we were there. more likely, i would remove him/her for 5 minutes or so and then let him/her try again. i wasn't totally offended by her deciding the punishment but may have been if it was totally different from what i would have naturally done.